LOL Looks like Monday is national "Day without an Illegal" day ...

[Lohman446]

If illegal aliens faced deportation for being caught cheating taxes or other offenses without being let go first (so they could vanish) it would greatly discourage people from comming here illegally.
.

Agreed - fully. But here the problem is law enforcement of current immigration law. More laws will not fix a problem if current laws are not enforced.

[geekwarrior]

Economic issues are a fault of economic issues, not immigration. But lets discuss one thing at a time - schools.

"The school system is overwhelmed by illegals". Ok.. in MI schools are supported primarly through property tax. In order to attend a school one must be able to verify residence (though school of choice law now allows crossing of district borders thats irrelevant to the discussion). In order to verify residence one must live somewhere. That somewhere must pay property taxes or risk seizure by the government. If one is renting, then rent must be being paid to someone who then pays the taxes. If owned, taxes are paid. You get the point, have to live somewhere, have to show residence, residence pays property tax...

Show me how someones immigration status causes a problem in overwhelming the school system - these are failures of school administrations, state governments, etc. Illegal immigration is not the key contributing factor.

Yeh, Im only going to discuss one item at a time, tell me when you want to move to the next and which one.

you are right, its the governments problem/fault for not enforcing the laws, i wont disagree, but how does that not make it a problem of illegal immigration. That is what the whole discussion is about, enforcing immigration laws. Illegal immigration status does not cause overcrowding in and of itself, but allowing millions to come here illegally does casue overcrowding, hence overcrowding, hence get the government to do something about illegal immigration.

Either that or I'm missing your point.....

[bleachit]

Agreed - fully. But here the problem is law enforcement of current immigration law. More laws will not fix a problem if current laws are not enforced.

I say we make a law making it illegal not to enforce current laws...

so, if no one enforces this new law, how will they be held accountable if this new law isnt enforced?

/whoa.

[geekwarrior]

Agreed - fully. But here the problem is law enforcement of current immigration law. More laws will not fix a problem if current laws are not enforced.

Yes, no new laws are needed, just enforcement of ones on the books. Enforcement is the whole issue here, and for the last ten yrs or more, there has been none.

Last year ICE was doing raids in Temecula, and they were told to stop. You know how many employers got in trouble for employing illegals...you could count the number on one hand. There is almost zero interior enforcement, if you make it across without getting caught, your in. That is what the agruement is about. That is why I am puzzled to the huge uproar about the new bill/law........we dont enforce anything anyways, so why are they worried.

[Lohman446]

you are right, its the governments problem/fault for not enforcing the laws, i wont disagree, but how does that not make it a problem of illegal immigration. That is what the whole discussion is about, enforcing immigration laws. Illegal immigration status does not cause overcrowding in and of itself, but allowing millions to come here illegally does casue overcrowding, hence overcrowding, hence get the government to do something about illegal immigration.

Either that or I'm missing your point.....

Not entirely. I agree current immigration laws should be enforced. However those that take the extreme view of these then blame all our problems (health care system, school system, economy) on illegal immigrants are wrong. They are doomsday scenarios that grab ones attention. This is not the case. If 100% of illegal immigrants were gone tomorrow we would still have problems in our health care system, school system, and our economy. Problems that result from fundamental flaws in America's current way of blaming problems on everything around them. We would still have overcrowded public schools, we would still have a portion of the society dependent on the welfare system and some woudl still be unwilling to seek work that was "beneath" them, etc.

[geekwarrior]

Not entirely. I agree current immigration laws should be enforced. However those that take the extreme view of these then blame all our problems (health care system, school system, economy) on illegal immigrants or wrong. They are doomsday scenarios that grab ones attention. This is not the case. If 100% of illegal immigrants were gone tomorrow we would still have problems in our health care system, school system, and our economy. Problems that result from fundamental flaws in America's current way of blaming problems on everything around them. We would still have overcrowded public schools, we woulds till have a portion of the society dependent on the welfare system and some woudl still be unwilling to seek work that was "beneath" them, etc.

your right, there's a lot of problems that arent tied to immigration in all those areas.

But the hospitals, schools, and infrastructure all have one common problem...overcrowding. Taking that away wont fix everything, but it might take some pressure off so we can look at fixing it. My brother works as an engineer for CA Dept of Transportation, my brotherinlaw is a ER nurse, and I have several friends in teaching. That and I have grown up in CA. I may have a narrowminded view of this, but its all what I see firsthand. In the last 2 years I have seen my commute go from 45 minutes to and hour and 30. I have waited in the hospital for 4 hours with my sick 3yr old son till 1 in the morning and finally just went home. I dont want to send my kids to a public school.

I have family in Grand Rapids MI, and am actually thinking of moving there because I cant afford to buy a house out here. Average price is 500,000. 20% down is 100,000 and you have to be making 120000 to be financed.

I think what has alot of people worried is not the people already here. Its that in CA we really cant take anymore. They say something like 1000 cars a week are added to LA freeways. And thats with alot of people leaving CA because they are fed up.

Is it the end of the world? No. But this problem has been ignored for so many years, and its time to do something about it.

[PyRo]

I wouldn't blame the government for not enforcing immigration laws. We have conservatives in a majority at every level now. I'm sure they would love nothing more than to round up every illegal and send them back to where they came from.

The problem comes from the voters. If they send everyone home all the legal immigrants who can vote as well as all their supporters will not vote for them. If the Republicans sent all the immigrants home I can guarantee you'd have a Democratic majority in congress and a Democratic president. The new government would then apologize and let them all back accomplishing nothing. Basically the majority may want the laws enforced but the minority is powerfull enough to swing things one way or another if either side takes a firm stand.

My unpopular opinion below - *Flame suit on:
The whole idea that everyone should vote isn't a good one (their I said it). Basically you have idiots electing idiots. You have those who go out and vote just so they can say they voted. Those who go vote Republican or Democrat across the board and don't even fully understand what their party or their candidates stand for, mush less recognize the names on the ballots. Those who go vote based on what someone told them to do. Those who go out and vote for Kerry because they don't like us being in Iraq, or those who voted for Bush because the like the idea of us going into Iraq when neither of the groups could talk for more than a minute about why they believe what they do one way or another. You have people who would stand by and watch as we were invaded without lifting a finger and you have people who want to conquer the world voting. Basically you have a large uneducated (in the matters of what the government handles) voting which forces the government to bend over backwards making these people happy so they can stay in power although it may not be in the countries best interest. The right answer isn’t always the popular one but the government is forced to go with the popular one.
My solution? I don't really have one. Perhaps a group of highly educated people who fully understand what is going on in the world, what the results of certain actions will be, what needs to be addressed and what does not (something that the average person me included does not). This way if it became necessary to do something unpopular such as invade another country, build a wall on the Mexican border and deport illegal aliens it could be done without fear of loosing political position. Then their are problems of corruption and decided how to choose who gets to vote, etc which could eventually lead to dictatorship or some form of communism. Their really is no perfect form of government. What government has ever not fallen because of incompetent leaders or corruption? It's an inevitability that every government will fall eventually and a new one rise in its place. Sure some are better then others but their isn't one that can last forever.

[PyRo]

If 100% of illegal immigrants were gone tomorrow we would still have problems in our health care system, school system, and our economy.

We would still have problems but some of the burden would be relieved. We need to take one step at a time to fix these problems and that's a good first step.

[Lohman446]

I think I have addressed schools, lets take this issue

"The roads are overcrowded". Roads are supported through income tax, sales tax, and gas taxes. If people are failing to collect these taxes than it is an issue that needs to be addressed seperatetly from immigration. If you have more people using the roads they should be spending more on gas and gas taxes- pretty logical. The roads should be able to support there use regardless of the immigration status of those using it.

The failure of the system is the failure of your government and its elected officials. Its just convenient for them to have a scapegoat (especially a scapegoat that doesn't vote).

[tropical_fishy]

This thread is not about voting, unfortunately, because I could ramble on for days. Countries like Italy have EXTREMELY high voter turnout. THe theory is because we have yet to have a government oppress us, a la 1930s-40s Italy, or Germany, or Russia, etc, citizens don't feel the needs to go to the polls.

[SCpoloRicker]

I have family in Grand Rapids MI, and am actually thinking of moving there because I cant afford to buy a house out here.

PM me if you want to talk about getting a mortgage.

/threadjack

[geekwarrior]

I think I have addressed schools, lets take this issue

"The roads are overcrowded". Roads are supported through income tax, sales tax, and gas taxes. If people are failing to collect these taxes than it is an issue that needs to be addressed seperatetly from immigration. If you have more people using the roads they should be spending more on gas and gas taxes- pretty logical. The roads should be able to support there use regardless of the immigration status of those using it.

The failure of the system is the failure of your government and its elected officials. Its just convenient for them to have a scapegoat (especially a scapegoat that doesn't vote).

Agreed again, its the governments failure. In fact they have been stealing(they call it borrowing) from the transportation fund. But the issure wouldnt be as critical if there wasnt to many people here and there wasnt a need to build. Roads arent built in days or even a year, it takes years of planning and designing. CA was not designed for the amount of growth of illegal immigration. Also there is no ROOM to build more roads because of the demand for housing and the amount of people around a concentrated area.

The government has screwed up, but it is also caused by getting way to many people way to quickly for the state to even keep up. Imagine taking 1000 new people a day into your city? Is your government prepared to do that. Probably not. That is why there is legal immigration, and projects/plans are based on those projections.

You keep saying its the governments fault, yes. But illegal immigration is a problem that the government has to fix. They go hand in hand. And its not just our (CA's) elected officials. Its your elected officials too. Border security is the responsibilty of the FEDERAL government.

[geekwarrior]

PM me if you want to talk about getting a mortgage.

/threadjack

lol...might take you up on that, i have an interview next week.

[geekwarrior]

oh, and about the scapegoat. This issue has been pushed by the PEOPLE of CA, pressuring there elected officials to do something about it. People here see the problem, its not the news (they are on the otherside) or the government(they're for big business:cheap labor +good big business), its the people.

[PyRo]

This thread is not about voting, unfortunately, because I could ramble on for days. Countries like Italy have EXTREMELY high voter turnout. THe theory is because we have yet to have a government oppress us, a la 1930s-40s Italy, or Germany, or Russia, etc, citizens don't feel the needs to go to the polls.

It's probably for the best that not everyone votes. The people who don't vote typically have little interest in politics. People who have little interest in policitcs and don't really understand what they're voteing for should really not vote.