If you love Paintball....

[Ole Unka Phil]

Good input Phillips!

A couple of things...

Registering and licensing does not keep criminals from stealing them. And statisticaly 90 some percent of all guns used in crimes are either stolen or illegaly obtained. See... they don't bother to get licenses, nor does a license on it keep that trigger from being pulled by a thief that could care less if you, the licensed owner, want it to or not.

In the US... little beknownst to many, you have to have a criminial check run each time you purchase one.

You can make all the licenses you want or laws you want and criminals could care less. They don't obey licensing laws nor purchace laws... nor do they even intend to actualy buy a firearm legaly. they intend to steal one or they intend to obtain one from some other crook that does.

Heck... with a few minor tools and some simple metal and a few common chemicals I can make a gun.

Give a criminal something to work with and he will be a criminal. A private law abiding citizen has a right to have the means to protect himself against that. Its either that or every other individual person in your country has to be a Police Officer assigned to the other guy. It cannot be that way. Its everyones right and DUTY to protect themselves. Because there is not enough police to be everywhere.

One of the things Gun owners here believe is that money is better spent on safety and security than passing even more laws criminals will ignore.

[Ole Unka Phil]

Would somebody please arrest Mayor Nagin and charge him with impersonating a Mayor!

http://www.saf.org/viewpr-new.asp?id=211

Still, after all this time, he does nothing to reverse his errors. And, in spite of all his incompetency, he gets re-elected. And by many that don't even live there and probably never will come back. The guy is not much more than a theif himself at this point. GIVE BACK THESE PEOPLES PROPERTY!!!! HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU HAVE TO BE TOLD THAT WHAT YOU DID WAS ILLEGAL!!!!

[Ole Unka Phil]

Please note that crime rates have dropped steadily as this progresses.... again... statistics... applicable? Perhaps at least partly...

http://www.gun-nuttery.com/rtc.gif

[Phillips]

It mus tjust be me then who feels I don't need to protect myself with a firearm. I never ment to imply that these laws ment criminals couldn't aquire fire arms, simply it makes it more difficult to in the first place, then to carry on using that firearm without police action.

My point is, guns aren't the problem it's the attitude and the gun culture that is. I can only speak from experience and that experience is that here guns arn't viewed as neccessary, some people own them others do not.
One point I would like to throw into the mix however is if a criminal intent on killing the maximum amount of people where to have a fire arms, it would be far easyer to maximise his/her killing potential than if they had say a knife.


If somebody enters my home, I will use whatever means necessary to remove them if they are a threat to me or my family, however I do not see a firearm as being neccessary to acomplish that task.

Do you see the difference? In America I believe it is viewed as being a right to own a fire arm, a proud object to own and something positive to have.
Over here they arn't held in particularly high esteam.



Anyway, I seriously doubt that those undue restrictions will ever be put through, especially in America, or anywhere else for that matter.


Guns don't kills people, the attitude those people owning the guns do. i.e. the only way to resolve this situation is to shoot ( This isn't intended as a blanket statment by the way ).
Meh happy shooting :

[Ole Unka Phil]

It mus tjust be me then who feels I don't need to protect myself with a firearm. I never ment to imply that these laws ment criminals couldn't aquire fire arms, simply it makes it more difficult to in the first place, then to carry on using that firearm without police action.

My point is, guns aren't the problem it's the attitude and the gun culture that is. I can only speak from experience and that experience is that here guns arn't viewed as neccessary, some people own them others do not.
One point I would like to throw into the mix however is if a criminal intent on killing the maximum amount of people where to have a fire arms, it would be far easyer to maximise his/her killing potential than if they had say a knife.


If somebody enters my home, I will use whatever means necessary to remove them if they are a threat to me or my family, however I do not see a firearm as being neccessary to acomplish that task.

Do you see the difference? In America I believe it is viewed as being a right to own a fire arm, a proud object to own and something positive to have.
Over here they arn't held in particularly high esteam.


Anyway, I seriously doubt that those undue restrictions will ever be put through, especially in America, or anywhere else for that matter.


Guns don't kills people, the attitude those people owning the guns do. i.e. the only way to resolve this situation is to shoot ( This isn't intended as a blanket statment by the way ).
Meh happy shooting :

Agreed on at least that....

It is your "right" as an individual to decide what means of protection you may need. And so it is your right to decide you don't need one. However... it is also your right, if your a law abiding citizen to have those choices readily available to you.

No laws so far have detered criminals. They laugh at laws. They know that the only people restricted by laws are the law abiding. And it is impossible to take every means of weapon away from them. It is also sometimes nessicary for a person to use a means of higher force to combat a criminal with a lesser means of force. For instance a Woman facing a large Male assailant with a knife... she needs a gun. All these options should be everyones right to employ. Simply denying them to EVERYONE in some misguided hope that it might deny a criminal or two is not justification nor is it effective in the end. Criminals have no respect for laws. And seek to use any of them they can to their advantage. Criminals would love for the common law abiding person to be garanteed to not have a gun. Makes things real easy for them.

There is also now some evidence that Criminals will avoid a tough mark and chose an easier one. And it is also quite likely that the doubt that they may be chosing an armed mark can sometimes dissuadge them and make them move on. Are they necessary? Well... sometimes they are! Sometimes just the fact that they don't know who might have one and who might not can be beneficial to all of us.

[Phillips]

Well if guns in the first place arn't easily available it means less criminals get their hands on them.
Legislation in effect here has worked wonders, no matter what ANYONE states, the correct enforcment of legislation deturs and hinders criminals aquiring firearms.
For example our armed response units, they are a great deterent, if you are a danger to the public you bette rmake sure you have written your will.

My point being, careful law making and correct enforcement can HELP reduce gun related deaths, one such way would be that guns have to eb stored in the correct fasion.
I.E. We HAVE to have a gun cabinet, this has strict rules on what is and isn't allowed. This stops the gun falling into the wrong hands.

I also see your point though, there is a huge difference on how easy it is to aquire a firearm in th eU.S than England, this is just due to the sources since guns are less popular here.

It's difficult to say, I do agree with the propper storage and restrictions on CERTAIN types of weapons, i.e. certain assult rifles, I just see no need for them.

I think it's very hard for me to judge what is right and wrong since I do not live or have ever traveled to America, I come from a totally different culture so i'm just taking my best shot ...................budda bum bum chhhhhhhhh

[Ole Unka Phil]

[Phillips]

I sense WIki.
VEry informative non the less, however of cause the per 100,00 there will be more shootings here, the U.S. Is HUGE, as will the numbe rof shootings be higher in the U.S. because of it's size.

May I also add that London is the worst place in England for gun related crimes, so comparing it to new york is not a true representation.


Someone please post the preset number of gun related crime figures(i.e. a solid number) in comparison with a few countries.

p.s. http://timlambert.org/2003/10/1020/ this makes for interesting reading,however I don't think that they understand that most of the population feel no need to own firearms, and the ones that do, use them for hunting.

p.p.s Also are we forgetting some societys are just more violent?
I see a lot of people saying that pump actions are illigal?, I really think this is false if not I know at least 4 people braking the law and 2 gun shops.


ANYWAY, paintball will never be effected by this.

[Ole Unka Phil]

Excellent points MATE!

Some exactly spot on. Some debateable of course...

Yes. Wiki.. which requires only one to post first. Not necessarily checked for errors nor totaly unbiased. But I wanted to put forth a set of thought that was "the other side" least I be accused of only presenting biased data. But... if one is uninformed and one googles this subject then that may be all one gets. So its important to take into account all the things "left out".

Now its important I address one of your first statements. You said (to some such degree) that under your laws you could obtain pretty much any firearm you wanted. Which is not the case in the case of Handguns. Which, admittedly are the easiest for a person to use for self defense. Because he can carry them on his person while keeping his hands free to go about his business. A Rifle or Shotgun makes a poor choice for this as its difficult to have one on you when you unexpectedly find yourself needing one. And of course the down side to that they are a the favorite of Criminals because they are the easiest to conceal. And to steal. (One of the most important point of gun safety is also to prevent theft).

I will also make note of the fact that one can see great similarities in Gun laws in England and the USA. in fact almost identical except for the registration of each item. They are recorded here. They are each checked through a Criminal Database before being sold. There just is no arbitrary decission by some bureacratic official of whether one is "worthy" of havng one. If your not a criminal you can have it. However, I might point out there are a few states that are exactly like your country. They do go through a permit process. Now... remember that here in the USA we are a federation of individual states. Where states control these sorts of things for the most part. By our Constitution this responsibilty is to them. The Federal government controls some of this (Many believe wrongly) as to the outlawing of Automatic fire weapons and length of barrels and how things will be transfered accross state lines. But very similar to your laws in most ways. So then that begs the question as to why more laws that will be ignored by Criminals? Are they going to do anything? Are we just proposing more Laws so as to say we are fixing something that is broken but cannot be fixed by laws?

For instance, here is another side of all that (not necessarily unbiased either, but actualy alludes to some of your points).

In 1919, the homicide rate in england/wales was only 8% of that in the US, and england had no gun control at that time.

after significant changes in the law and some of the strictest gun control in the world, it hasnt changed much.

rapes in england, sexual assault, robbery, violent street crime, all have risen steadly in england/wales - for instance, in 2001, street robberies rose 28%, violent crime 11%, murder 4%, and rapes rose by 14%.

gun crimes in the US are reported differently than in England. in the US, and crime involving a gun whatsoever is classified a gun crime. in england, only SOLVED crimes are reported. therefore, ANY UNSOLVED CRIME INVOLVING A GUN IS NOT REPORTED, an incredibly significant factor...

in england/wales, of the 20 areas with the highest number of legally registered firearms, only 2 were above average in instances of "gun crime"
in england/wales, of the 20 areas with the LOWEST number of legally registered firearms, 10 were above average in instances of "gun crime".

reference: click here

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/4.1/GunFacts4-1-Print.pdf

And... I believe Paintball will be affected by this eventally. Note the incidence of Air Guns used in crimes in England... and note that several proposed laws in the US have included Paintball guns. They can deliver lethal projectiles and they can be used in commission of a crime. They, in fact, have been. You have to remember that many of the authors of some of these laws are proposing to outlaw a certain "Look" of a weapon. Not taking into account its predominant use. The "Assault Weapons Bans" are a perfect example of that. They are simply rifles that "look" like a military weapon. However they function exactly the same as any Hunting or Target rifle. And in fact are predominantly used for that.

[PsychoBaller]

Bannage of stuff has already been happening in NY and NJ.

Living in NJ, I can't buy a pellet rifle without a proper License. (I'm 24).

Gosh darn squirrels and wild Turkeys are a pain in the arse too...

[Phillips]

SERIOUSLY?!?!? Ok maybe I do have it wrong, I have been buying pellet guns and pellets for pest control since the age of 14 and still can.
Thats a real shame, I mean it's a PELLET GUN technically under the same peice of legislation as paintball markers over here.

that is worrying.

[Ole Unka Phil]

It is all troubling. Its everywhere!

Now... how about your new ban on "Replica Firearms". How is that going to interplay?

Here is an interesting read. Seems fairly closely related to banning things like Paintball guns doesn't it? So is society failing to the point that you NEED a gun? Just when its going to get harder to get one?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk//pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=437089&in_page_id=1770

[Phillips]

haha none in this country needs a gun and 99% don't feel the need.
This new act is mainly combatting replica fire arms that can be converted into real fire arms, they are extremely dangerous.
The section of legislation concerning English and Welsh law involving paintball markers is very clear, we arn't under any threat.

The section involving air rifles and paintball markers is technically out of date, however it's very clear on what is legal and what is not.


Believe me when I say there is no way that the government would impose heavy restrictions on paintball markers, especially seeing the size of the English and Welsh paintball movement, it's a democracy and there are to many pressure groups for any such restrictions.


Replica firearms serve no purpose, they can either be converted into dangerous working firearms or even worse an unsuspecting memeber of the public can end up in police crossfire as it get smistaken for a real fire arm.
There has been a call for this law in the past, I actually support it. A man was shot because he was carrying a replica fire arm, the police had to take action to ensure the safty of the public , however it could have been overted.


Also can we have some recent data, not from 2001 thats nearly 6 years ago and doesn't represent the recent decline.


p.s. the Day i need a gun to live safe in my home is the day I move.

[Niox]

It is all troubling. Its everywhere!

Now... how about your new ban on "Replica Firearms". How is that going to interplay?

Here is an interesting read. Seems fairly closely related to banning things like Paintball guns doesn't it? So is society failing to the point that you NEED a gun? Just when its going to get harder to get one?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk//pages/li...n_page_id=1770

To my knowledge the UKPSF has been negotiating with the Home Office in respects to paintball and paintball guns and their use in the UK. There seems to be a mutual understanding here between the two organisations that paintball is different to other "firearms" and thus should not be included in blanket legislation. The key difference being the projectile and the intended purpose of a marker.

A paintball gun is designed to fire a soft sphere with a liquid fill at another person without causing harm to the other person. This is the key difference here in the UK, the fact that a paintball gun is designed to shoot a SOFT somewhat HARMLESS projectile at another person, not a HARD projectile that is intended to cause harm and/or death.

I believe that if you feel you need a gun to protect yourself then it is time to get out, however this is not always a possibility. If you are going to use a gun responsibly and respect all laws of wherever you are then I see no problem in someone owning a gun. The problem lies in making sure that only responsible people will get one and keeping it out of the hands of people who want to "pop a cap in yo' ***".

Much love,
Niox

[Ole Unka Phil]

Shock statistics time!!!!


In 1911, Turkey established gun control. Subsequently, from 1915 to 1917, 1.5-million
Armenians, deprived of the means to defend themselves, were rounded up and killed.
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. Then from 1929 to 1953, approximately 20-
millon dissidents were rounded up and killed.
In 1938 Germany established gun control. From 1939 to 1945 over 13-million Jews, gypsies,
homosexuals, mentally ill, union leaders, Catholics and others, unable to fire a shot in protest,
were rounded up and killed.
In 1935, China established gun control. Subsequently, between 1948 and 1952, over 20-million
dissidents were rounded up and killed.
In 1956, Cambodia enshrined gun control. In just two years (1975-1977) over one million
"educated" people were rounded up and killed.
In 1964, Guatemala locked in gun control. From 1964 to 1981, over 100,000 Mayan Indians
were rounded up and killed as a result of their inability to defend themselves.
In 1970, Uganda got gun control. Over the next nine years over 300,000 Christians were rounded
up and killed.
Over 56-million people have died because of gun control in the last century . . .

Senator Diane Feinstein, speaking on "60-Minutes" said "if I thought I could get the votes, I'd have taken them all."

in America?