Va Tech shootings

[Aggravated Assault]

carrier one doesnt hostler his weapon because he's not sure the threat is neutralized or if there is another perp.

carrier 2 from the class room next door hears the shots and comes to investigate with gun drawn, sees carrier one and shots are exchanged.

probable?

Not probable. A properly trained individual would be more concerned w/ barricading him/her self in a easily defensible position or escaping altogether than going around headhunting.

You just missed the point. To a paniced civilian, a uniform is a sign of safety. Plain clothes do not comfort a panicing person

I would bet A buddy or teacher packing would have brought a lot of comfort at that point.

[warbeak2099]

Good point. I would then think it would be a good idea for Carrier 1 to close and lock the classroom door. If Carrier 2 came to the door and shouted to see what was going on, Carrier 1 could safely communicate the situation before opening the door.

[Desega]

carrier one doesnt hostler his weapon because he's not sure the threat is neutralized or if there is another perp.

carrier 2 from the class room next door hears the shots and comes to investigate with gun drawn, sees carrier one and shots are exchanged.

probable?

Very. There is no such thing as a predictable shooting. Adding to the chaos won't help.

[Lohman446]

You just missed the point. To a paniced civilian, a uniform is a sign of safety. Plain clothes do not comfort a panicing person.

You missed the question. If the uniform is a prerequisite of being able to help is a plain clothes officer no value?

[Desega]

You missed the question. If the uniform is a prerequisite of being able to help is a plain clothes officer no value?

It's not a prerequisute, its a symbol of safety. In a crisis, an officer in full uniform symbolizes safety, not to say that he is any more helpful than the off duty officer that happened to be there, but he has the apperance of an authority figure, so people will recognize that. At a college, an off duty officer could easily be confused for a civilian or worse a shooter.

[Desega]

There is no way that we will ever agree on this subject. I've voiced myself and defended my opinions, but I'm not going to take the time to untangle every sentence I've typed to those who don't want to understand. Enjoy your bickering.

Desega

[geekwarrior]

Not probable. A properly trained individual would be more concerned w/ barricading him/her self in a easily defensible position or escaping altogether than going around headhunting.

I wish I could believe that. In a perfect world, yes. But too many people would want to play the hero and go investigate. You're telling me that if you heard shot after shot after shot, and people screaming, you would wait in the room?

And like I said before, training can only do so much. Even with all the training cops receive, there are alot out there who lose there cool, especially the first time in that situation. And you cant train for every situation.

Don't get me wrong, I am for carrying a gun, I wish I could get the permit out here in CA. But having students packing on a college campus just seems like a disaster waiting to happen. I don't trust the govt to screen well enough to catch the crazies either.

[Lohman446]

It's not a prerequisute, its a symbol of safety. In a crisis, an officer in full uniform symbolizes safety, not to say that he is any more helpful than the off duty officer that happened to be there, but he has the apperance of an authority figure, so people will recognize that. At a college, an off duty officer could easily be confused for a civilian or worse a shooter.

My point is this. All the problems associated with a civilian "uniform" are associated with plain clothes officers are tehy not? Yet they make a positive difference across the country and should be capable of handling this situation.

[93civiccpe]

Just a few things:

For SR_matt, I did attend VCU, which is located in the city of Richmond which is usually in the top 10 for states with the highest amount of murders, sadly enough. VCU's policy was that no firearms were allowed on campus when I went there, and I'm not sure if that has changed.

As for this whole conversation about carrying on campus, and seeing guns in class making you nervous, I'd like to share my own opinions.

I do have a concealed carry permit, and do choose to carry when going to certain locations. There are a LOT of misconceptions about people who carry weapons.

If you legally carry a concealed weapon, you must have a background check and class, and most people don't know what that class involves, so let me let you in on some of what mine did:

-First, you learn that carrying a firearm on you is the BIGGEST liability you can ever have. If you pull a firearm to save someone's life and that bullet strikes another person, you are going to jail and possibly get the death penalty. If you fire on a person and the courts decide you were not justified, you are going to jail and possibly get the death penalty. The instructer stressed OVER AND OVER that it was a liability, and that is why most people choose not to carry. They don't want that responsibility.

-Second, it was stressed that if you are going to carry a firearm, you had better have a lot of practice with it for the above reason. Personally, I've put thousands of rounds through my concealed carry firearm, and would not carry it if I couldn't hit exactly what I was aiming at.

-Third, a person carrying a firearm legally is not going to be waving it around or showing it to induce fear. That is called "brandishing a firearm" and is against the law by itself. You should not see a firearm that is being legally carried. The people carrying them are not a bunch of cowboys shooting aimlessly. They have been trained and know that by carrying a firearm you have opened yourself up to more ways to get in a lot of trouble just by making simple mistakes. It is a serious responsibility.

-Fourth, you never take the firearm out unless it's absolutely required, and if you pull it out you had better be ready to discharge it. This goes back to the law against "brandishing a firearm" to create fear. That firearm is not going to come out unless it is absolutely necessary.


Those are 4 of the takeaways from the class that I think apply here. Out of my class of 18 people, 3 of us chose to go on and apply for a concealed carry permit and obtain it. The rest decided they didn't want that liability. On top of that, one of the guys got pulled over by a police officer because of having a taillight out, and the police approached his vehicle with weapon drawn and the first question was whether he had his concealed carry weapon on him. Let me assure you, it's not like a concealed carry permit is a license to kill, it's actually a license to get hassled, and have to go through a lot of crap, and it takes the right person to choose that responsibility.

Given that situation above, if I was legally armed and I saw people getting shot and killed, I would felt it was my job to try to defend myself and fellow students, and tried to end that situation before it began. Fortunately for me, and I thank God for this, I have never had to pull my firearm to protect myself, and I pray that I never do. I have it for protection, and pray that I will never have to pull it out, because if I pull it out it means there is a good chance either I'm going to die or I'm going to have to kill someone to stay alive. That is a choice I will readily make, but hope I never have to.

As for not liking a gun in the classroom, let me tell you a little story. My sister-in-law and my brother were living with us when they were fixing up their place, and she hated firearms. She would let my brother go shooting with me, but didn't want him owning one. One night we heard a crash downstairs that sounded like someone was coming through a window. They of course came to my room quickly and wanted my brother and I to go down with firearms and check it out. Shortly after that, my brother bought his first pistol. What she saw was how responsible both he and I were with firearms, and she found safety in knowing we had them for protection. (I actually let them keep my 12 guage shotgun in their room until he bought his first pistol at their request).

I understand if there was an idiot who was showing off a pistol in class, of course BOTH you and I would not feel comfortable. But given the above situation where a gunman is going through your school shooting and killing people, and you hear the shots getting closer to your classroom, if a person reveals he has a concealed carry firearm on him and is going to try to save the lives of you and everyone else in that classroom, are you going to feel scared that he has it or grateful?? That's the question that needs to be answered.

[Ole Unka Phil]

there were some warning signs if this part is true

US media reported that a "disturbing" note had been found in Cho Seung-hui's dormitory, and that he had been referred for counselling after producing "troubled" work in his creative writing class.

[Ole Unka Phil]

I wish I could believe that. In a perfect world, yes. But too many people would want to play the hero and go investigate. You're telling me that if you heard shot after shot after shot, and people screaming, you would wait in the room?

Not only that but I would decide to flee or find a safe haven. I am protecting myself. Thats all my responsibility is. Of course if my family was present them too. But its all about protection. And if you have the ability to barracade yourself or flee, those present the better choice to taking a chance on using deadly force. Its your option and you have to quickly chose the best one. Remember, you have only the right to self defense and that exends to placing yourself into anothers shoes. However your primary responsibility is self defense. You are not the police and so you do not have the same latitude nor do you want that responsibility. So yea... your on your own! The students in some of those classrooms barracaded themselves. Very much the right thing to do. That was about their only option anyway. However it was a good one.

And like I said before, training can only do so much. Even with all the training cops receive, there are alot out there who lose there cool, especially the first time in that situation. And you cant train for every situation.

Don't get me wrong, I am for carrying a gun, I wish I could get the permit out here in CA. But having students packing on a college campus just seems like a disaster waiting to happen. I don't trust the govt to screen well enough to catch the crazies either.

And not having any of them packing prevented a disaster? Doesn't seem like that worked did it? No one is really safe anywhere. No one is going to be able to prevent something like this by any means I know of. The only thing left is for you to be able to defend yourself and no one has the right to take that away from you unless they wish to assign you a private security guard. No amount of training will prepare you for every situation. But... none will not either. Just because someone is a "student" does not change his/her right to protect him/her self.

[geekwarrior]

And not having any of them packing prevented a disaster? Doesn't seem like that worked did it? No one is really safe anywhere. No one is going to be able to prevent something like this by any means I know of. The only thing left is for you to be able to defend yourself and no one has the right to take that away from you unless they wish to assign you a private security guard. No amount of training will prepare you for every situation. But... none will not either. Just because someone is a "student" does not change his/her right to protect him/her self.

is the screening for getting a permit to carry the same one that allowed this guy to buy the gun? sorry, don't trust the bureaucracies to screen out the idiots. more idiots carrying when they go off the deep end or have a bad day = more killing.

[SR_matt]

in va the screeening to get a consealed carry permit it stricter IIRC.

if yall didnt know though the guns had the serial numbers destroied on them so i think that is a decent piece of evidence to show that they might not have been obtained legaly
-matt

[geekwarrior]

in va the screeening to get a consealed carry permit it stricter IIRC.

if yall didnt know though the guns had the serial numbers destroied on them so i think that is a decent piece of evidence to show that they might not have been obtained legaly
-matt

stricter maybe, but doubt they have time to really look, and even crazys can look good on paper.

they found the receipt in his bag no? and have him on surveillance buying the gun? unless the shop sold them to him illegally. if so, that guy is in big trouble.

[MoeMag]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070417/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting