Va Tech shootings

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  • Ole Unka Phil
    I used to care...
    • Jan 2004
    • 744

    #76
    Here is an editorial I read this morning. Just to give you someone elses take on it....


    EDITORIAL: Fear, rumors not the biggest problem

    A tragedy at Virginia Tech University

    Details were still being pieced together Monday afternoon, but it appears a crazed gunman opened fire at different sites over a period of several hours Monday morning on the sprawling campus of Virginia Tech University, killing at least 32 before turning his weapon on himself.

    (The electronic media immediately dubbed the incident the "worst shooting massacre in U.S. history." Those who remember how 300 Sioux -- many of them women and children -- came to die in the snow at Wounded Knee in 1890, for the "crime" of one old man found in possession of a rifle, might disagree.)

    Many who wish sections of the Bill of Rights could be ignored or repealed have ridiculed Nevada state Sen. Bob Beers for introducing legislation this year which would again "allow" specially trained Nevada classroom teachers to carry handguns, a step intended to dissuade or (in a last resort) halt any such attack on school grounds here in the Silver State.

    Testifying against Sen. Beers' bill in Carson City March 29, Ken Young of the Clark County School District Police said armed teachers are not needed. Why?


    Back when two gunmen invaded Columbine High School in Colorado in 1999, Mr. Young explained, a mind-set still prevailed in which police would hang around for hours -- allowing victims to bleed to death, in that case -- waiting for a specially armed and trained police SWAT team to arrive before entering a campus where a shooting had been reported.

    But that's all changed now, Mr. Young explained. Since 12 students and a teacher died at Columbine, police all across the country -- all across the country -- have changed the way they respond to reports of people with guns inside schools.

    Now, instead of waiting for a SWAT team to arrive, police are trained to enter school grounds much more quickly to eliminate the threat. That's why armed teachers are not needed to put an end to any such incident, Mr. Young explained.

    At Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va., Monday, it appears the shooter killed two people in a dormitory around 7 a.m., and that the first 9-1-1 call came in around 7:15.

    Were all students promptly informed there'd been a shooting, so they could flee or lock their doors? (They could not legally arm themselves. Sen. Beers reports Virginia legislators last year defeated a bill that would have "allowed" those with permits to carry self-defense arms on campus; a Virginia Tech spokesman thanked the lawmakers "because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus.")

    Did Virginia Tech police quickly secure the campus and "eliminate the threat"? Apparently not. Students who were in the engineering classroom after 9:30 a.m. when the gunman arrived and started shooting there say they had been unaware, up till then, that people had been killed at the dormitory across campus more than two hours before.

    University President Charles Steger explained later in the day that it's hard to reach everyone on such a large campus, but also that he'd been concerned about, "People putting out all kinds of rumors that were creating fear and uncertainty on campus."

    Well, good heavens. Wouldn't want anyone to have experienced any "fear" after the 7 a.m. shootings.

    Yes, people can be trampled in a crowd. But believe it or not, there are times when "remaining calm and staying where you are" is not the best solution. (Think Sept. 11.)

    Because authorities "assumed" the shooter had left the area, it now appears the culprit was free to walk across campus and open fire again, more than two hours later.

    And this is why there's no need to allow specially trained teachers to carry arms to defend themselves and their students, you see. Because campus police "all across the country" now have new training and procedures which guarantee they can and will swarm the school grounds much more quickly to "eliminate the threat."

    Even as administrators worry about spin and damage control, fretting about "people putting out all kinds of rumors" that might "create fear and uncertainty on campus."
    Want some Candy little Girl?

    ... and...It's not my fault anymore!!!!

    Comment

    • warbeak2099
      That is my foot!
      • Jan 2004
      • 4447

      #77
      Another thing is that there are people responsible for botching this up and getting 32 people killed. There needs to be an investigation on whether or not these people should be prosecuted for at least negligence. When it's your job to keep people safe and you do something as stupid and imbecilic as this, you need to be punished.
      My Feedback

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      • Ole Unka Phil
        I used to care...
        • Jan 2004
        • 744

        #78
        Again... even if they made some wrong decisions its the shooter that bears responsiblity for his actions. No one else. We should however learn from it.

        Here is some more info coming in:

        Want some Candy little Girl?

        ... and...It's not my fault anymore!!!!

        Comment

        • Jester of Spectre
          ROLL TIDE!!!!!
          • May 2005
          • 100

          #79
          Originally posted by Ole Unka Phil
          Shootings and deaths at Va Tech

          22 dead and 21 wounded....

          Va Tech has a no gun on campus policy.

          HB 1572, which would have allowed handguns on college campuses, died in subcommittee.
          By Greg Esposito 381-1675

          A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

          House Bill 1572 didn't get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.

          The bill was proposed by Del. Todd Gilbert, R-Shenandoah County, on behalf of the Virginia Citizens Defense League. Gilbert was unavailable Monday and spokesman Gary Frink would not comment on the bill's defeat other than to say the issue was dead for this General Assembly session.

          Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

          Del. Dave Nutter, R-Christiansburg, would not comment Monday because he was not part of the subcommittee that discussed the bill.

          Most universities in Virginia require students and employees, other than police, to check their guns with police or campus security upon entering campus. The legislation was designed to prohibit public universities from making "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."

          The legislation allowed for exceptions for participants in athletic events, storage of guns in residence halls and military training programs.

          Last spring a Virginia Tech student was disciplined for bringing a handgun to class, despite having a concealed handgun permit. Some gun owners questioned the university's authority, while the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police came out against the presence of guns on campus.

          In June, Tech's governing board approved a violence prevention policy reiterating its ban on students or employees carrying guns and prohibiting visitors from bringing them into campus facilities.



          I guess this policy works eh? So we had 26,000 known potential victims unarmed....

          Sad day. I bet this will bring on cries of more gun legislation that only the Victims will comply with.
          i carry my .40 every where i go because you never know when crap like that is going to happen everyone over the age of 21 who is sane and responsible i urge you to get your permit it could save your life or someone elses one day

          Comment

          • Lohman446
            Useful posts: 7
            • Jun 2003
            • 9315

            #80
            Originally posted by Jester of Spectre
            i carry my .40 every where i go because you never know when crap like that is going to happen everyone over the age of 21 who is sane and responsible i urge you to get your permit it could save your life or someone elses one day
            Only if you have the ability to do so, receive proper training, and are comfortable doing so. I don't want anyone uncomfortable or untrained carrying a gun.
            "Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess

            Comment

            • warbeak2099
              That is my foot!
              • Jan 2004
              • 4447

              #81
              The first thing I do when I turn 21 is apply and begin recieving proper training.
              My Feedback

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              • Desega
                Here's Johnny!
                • Sep 2004
                • 518

                #82
                Originally posted by Gitaroo Man
                For the 50th time I'm saying GUNS MAKE PEOPLE NERVOUS. I realize you have a right to carry so go ahead and carry all you want. It's just if I found out about a gun being in the classroom (if) how am I supposed to know you're not concealing it for another school shooting or not? That's what would make me nervous.
                QFT Even if someone carrying a gun in the class were to have pulled it, you need to way the situation out more. People were panicking. If a person in a panic saw another person with a gun, not in a police uniform, their first thought is not going to be "we're saved!" it's going to be "another shooter!" And if said vigilanty takes a shot, and hits someone trying to run from the first shooter, how does that help? You can be as expereinced as you'd like but in a fire fight you will NEVER be able to control your enviroment and keep a level head. Adrenaline won't allow it. People carrying guns in that kind of a situation will become trigger itchy, and jumpy because their gun is making them nervous. There are too many factors to justifiably say that a gun in a classroom should not be a threat or risk.
                I can't feel my toes . . .

                Comment

                • warbeak2099
                  That is my foot!
                  • Jan 2004
                  • 4447

                  #83
                  I disagree, with the proper training, a person can be taught to keep a level head in that kind of situation. Police and military personel go through it and are able to do so afterwards. The first thing I'd think if the person sitting next to me pulled a gun on the shooter would be, "Thank God for this guy."

                  And how would we know that someone with a concealed weapon isn't a school shooter? Because they have the permit. You must not understand what it takes to get one. You can't exactly be a nutjob. Training is also required.
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                  • Desega
                    Here's Johnny!
                    • Sep 2004
                    • 518

                    #84
                    I've taken the training to get one and I do understand what is required, but in a school shooting are you going to take the time to show everyone your permit and yell "It's okay! I'm qualified!"? As proven in this case, the shooter obviously knew how to get a gun and he was carring a concealed weapon without a permit.
                    I can't feel my toes . . .

                    Comment

                    • Lohman446
                      Useful posts: 7
                      • Jun 2003
                      • 9315

                      #85
                      Originally posted by Desega
                      QFT Even if someone carrying a gun in the class were to have pulled it, you need to way the situation out more. People were panicking. If a person in a panic saw another person with a gun, not in a police uniform, their first thought is not going to be "we're saved!" it's going to be "another shooter!" And if said vigilanty takes a shot, and hits someone trying to run from the first shooter, how does that help? You can be as expereinced as you'd like but in a fire fight you will NEVER be able to control your enviroment and keep a level head. Adrenaline won't allow it. People carrying guns in that kind of a situation will become trigger itchy, and jumpy because their gun is making them nervous. There are too many factors to justifiably say that a gun in a classroom should not be a threat or risk.
                      So plain clothes police officers are never capable of handling a situation?
                      "Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess

                      Comment

                      • geekwarrior
                        MIA
                        • Oct 2005
                        • 2581

                        #86
                        Originally posted by warbeak2099
                        I disagree, with the proper training, a person can be taught to keep a level head in that kind of situation. Police and military personel go through it and are able to do so afterwards.

                        not sure about that. I've seen alot of videos were the police go nuts under fire, and thats with ALOT of training. Same thing with soldiers they're first time under fire.

                        Comment

                        • Desega
                          Here's Johnny!
                          • Sep 2004
                          • 518

                          #87
                          Originally posted by Lohman446
                          So plain clothes police officers are never capable of handling a situation?
                          You just missed the point. To a paniced civilian, a uniform is a sign of safety. Plain clothes do not comfort a panicing person.
                          I can't feel my toes . . .

                          Comment

                          • warbeak2099
                            That is my foot!
                            • Jan 2004
                            • 4447

                            #88
                            Originally posted by Desega
                            I've taken the training to get one and I do understand what is required, but in a school shooting are you going to take the time to show everyone your permit and yell "It's okay! I'm qualified!"? As proven in this case, the shooter obviously knew how to get a gun and he was carring a concealed weapon without a permit.
                            When did I say the carrier needs to announce him/herself to everyone? Here's a situation:

                            Carrier is sitting in class taking notes. Perp walks in and pulls gun out. Carrier draws weapon and fires on Perp. Perp falls and is neutralized. Carrier holsters weapon and calls 911.

                            These things happen so quickly, people are usually stunned. They don't get up and start running around. More likely than not, the carrier would have a perfectly clear shot.
                            My Feedback

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                            • Desega
                              Here's Johnny!
                              • Sep 2004
                              • 518

                              #89
                              Fight or flight response is real. And even if the shooter is neutralized, the people in the class are only going to see it as someone with a gun shot someone else with a gun, and they won't know who the "goodguy" is. Weapons of any sort make people nervous.
                              I can't feel my toes . . .

                              Comment

                              • geekwarrior
                                MIA
                                • Oct 2005
                                • 2581

                                #90
                                Originally posted by warbeak2099
                                When did I say the carrier needs to announce him/herself to everyone? Here's a situation:

                                Carrier is sitting in class taking notes. Perp walks in and pulls gun out. Carrier draws weapon and fires on Perp. Perp falls and is neutralized. Carrier holsters weapon and calls 911.

                                These things happen so quickly, people are usually stunned. They don't get up and start running around. More likely than not, the carrier would have a perfectly clear shot.
                                carrier one doesnt hostler his weapon because he's not sure the threat is neutralized or if there is another perp.

                                carrier 2 from the class room next door hears the shots and comes to investigate with gun drawn, sees carrier one and shots are exchanged.

                                probable?

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