Va Tech shootings

[SCpoloRicker]

And once again:

If guns make you nervous, you don't have to go there. If it's so important to you to not be around guns, you don't have to go there.

Tit for Tat my friend.

I can do this forever.

If not having guns make you nervous, you don't have to go there...

Right, because you're not at all stating that the right to carry [i]should[/b] be universal in the U.S. vis a vis the 2nd.

Not disagreeing, but that's some poor logic.

I'd like to add that I'm not sure what percentage of owners/CCW are sufficiently trained to respond to a crisis in the manner commonly described. I suspect that a good amount of CCW people will participate in at least semi-regular training. I bet another solid amount train very regularly. That said, comparing to LE or military is somewhat preposterous to me.

[Ole Unka Phil]

If not having guns make you nervous, you don't have to go there...

Right, because you're not at all stating that the right to carry [i]should[/b] be universal in the U.S. vis a vis the 2nd.

Not disagreeing, but that's some poor logic.

I'd like to add that I'm not sure what percentage of owners/CCW are sufficiently trained to respond to a crisis in the manner commonly described. I suspect that a good amount of CCW people will participate in at least semi-regular training. I bet another solid amount train very regularly. That said, comparing to LE or military is somewhat preposterous to me.

Ok lets repeat this. We are NOT planning for involving ourselves in a crisis. We are strictly prepared for self defense. Part of our thought process is avoidance and flight if possible. We are only perpared to attempt to defend our life in the face of the threat of deadly force being used against us.

Most CWP'ers I know train at least once a month at target and some more often. I can tell you that many LE do not qualify but maybe once a year. Some twice. Better departments do so more often and many officers train on thier own.

However... reminder... most people with concealed weapons permits plan to never have to ever use thier gun to protect themselves. They hope and pray they never have to. They are prepared to but they know that because you can never be sure when it might be that time, you have to be prepared. A gun at hand is better than 5 at home. But we shoot as a sport mostly. Target shooting and such. And some tactics mixed in so we can protect ourselves if we ever are forced to. We would perfer not too. If you are not of that mind set... I would rather you not carry. I don't need cowboys out there making things unsafe for the rest of us either. If your not mature enough to accept the responsibility I would rather you not.

[CaptaiN_JacK]

Bomb threat at the U of Minnesota in Minneapolis...copy cat or kid that wanted an easy way out of an exam they neglected to study about?

Either way there were no bombs found, and no bombs went off.

[geekwarrior]

Bomb threat at the U of Minnesota in Minneapolis...copy cat or kid that wanted an easy way out of an exam they neglected to study about?

Either way there were no bombs found, and no bombs went off.

these things always seem to shake a few more nuts outta the tree.

[CoolHand]

If not having guns make you nervous, you don't have to go there... .

Exactly.

That's why I said I can do this forever.

Justifying your wants by saying that others can simply choose not to come where you've declared that something they do can't be done IS poor logic.

I'm glad it didn't take too much longer for someone to finally see what I was saying (perhaps I said it a bit too subtly).

At any rate, this is one of those topics that folks are never going to agree upon.

But that's OK. One of the (many) great things about this country is that we can agree to disagree and still get along just fine.

[wjr]

Exactly.

That's why I said I can do this forever.

Justifying your wants by saying that others can simply choose not to come where you've declared that something they do can't be done IS poor logic.

I'm glad it didn't take too much longer for someone to finally see what I was saying (perhaps I said it a bit too subtly).

At any rate, this is one of those topics that folks are never going to agree upon.

But that's OK. One of the (many) great things about this country is that we can agree to disagree and still get along just fine.

I guess your arguments are all beyond us coolhand

It's not just a few people who would say that guns are meant for campuses. I doubt there's a school administrator out there who would think they are. You're the minority here.

Not that it matters from a legal standpoint though...

I would also like to know something. This is a genuine question. I've researched it but I can't seem to figure it out.

Do state universities qualify as private establishments? VT is a "land grant pyrotechnical university" according to wikipedia. I searched "land grant" and there was some bill passed a while ago giving land and/or money to start "public" universities. Yeah, public is in the name... but I wouldn't want to base an assumption entirely on that.

I invite anyone to help me find a definitive answer on this.

I want to know, because if VT were a private establishment, they could have whatever policy about guns they want then.

[CoolHand]

. . . . You're the minority here.. . . . .

Your point being?

That's just one more nice thing about this country, I can voice an unpopular opinion and there ain't a thing you can do about it.

[Lohman446]

i would love to hear your plan for "straightening out our country" because i am down for a laugh.

if guns never existed, the world would be a better place, dont deny that.

Yeh, cause the entirety of human violence is centered around guns

And I deny that fully. At one time the feudal system worked because the people on the lowest end of it had nearly no prayer of an effective uprising against those who had trained there entire life for combat.

So no, your simple, one line logic is severely flawed and indicates a total lack of historical knowledge.

[warbeak2099]

So no, your simple, one line logic is severely flawed and indicates a total lack of historical knowledge.

Quite true, there was more than a bit of violence in this world long before guns. The Roman Empire?

[Mango]

It's pretty simple:

There will always be lunatics that will carry out acts of violence such as this. Let's focus on the fact that he was a nutjob. Guns are not the issue here, it's pretty simple that he had a well thought out plan and executed it. Pretty difficult to stop a person like him unless someone else on the campus was armed. Oh wait...gun control laws only hurt the LAW ABIDING citizens...lunatics and criminals will always have guns availible to them since they do not follow legal channels.

Hmm so it looks like taking the guns away from the general public only makes us easy prey. The stories you never hear about are how law abiding citizens who have the right to carry have saved lives. Since the mainstream media loves to glorify nutjobs like this guy, then point the finger at firearms....we simply never hear about it.

Actually I can recall one news story about a store owner in Philly that shot and killed one armed robber, and wounded another. He was from China, had a .38 behind the counter. One of the armed thugs was holding a gun to his wifes head, while the other was marching straight at him. He pulled his pistol from behind the register and shot the man by his wife. Then shot the other thug in the arm and chest.

Police did not press charges.

[Aggravated Assault]

I'd like to add that I'm not sure what percentage of owners/CCW are sufficiently trained to respond to a crisis in the manner commonly described. I suspect that a good amount of CCW people will participate in at least semi-regular training. I bet another solid amount train very regularly.

Good point.

That said, comparing to LE or military is somewhat preposterous to me.

Think on this tho, I live in a smaller community (15,000) and one of my oldest friends is a CP here, two of my classmates who I know too. I have a fair idea what traing they have. I also have an In-law who is a state trooper as well as two friends from the area who are.

I'm not putting my buddies here at the city down, but to me, there is generally, almost a night and day difference. So, I'm not really disagreeing with your statement, But, from my view, I think you nearly contradicted yourself. Even within law enforcement the same idea above will apply. Ammont of training.

I dont find it preposterous a civilian couldn't be as well (or better) trained than say, a local city cop or campus security. In this case, I bet until the cavalry arrived, thats who was dealing with this mess, for the most part.

[Ole Unka Phil]

Actually I can recall one news story about a store owner in Philly that shot and killed one armed robber, and wounded another. He was from China, had a .38 behind the counter. One of the armed thugs was holding a gun to his wifes head, while the other was marching straight at him. He pulled his pistol from behind the register and shot the man by his wife. Then shot the other thug in the arm and chest. Then there was the recent Mall shooting where an off duty just happened to have his gun. He was not required to carry off duty. But he chose too.

Police did not press charges.

There are actually two incidents where armed citizens stopped school shootings with their own guns. One was a teacher that retrieved his shotgun (I believe it was) from his car. I believe that was a public school IIRC. And the other were two Law students who also had to go to their cars to get thier guns and stopped that shooter after he had killed two. These two gentelmen were former LE's I think, , or at least had some former LE experience. Both of those incidences were in the last couple years. Not all that much press on those. I will see if I can find the articles about those sometime today.

The fact is that as much as the Police would love to prevent crimes or stop them in the act, they just cannot be everywhere. More often they investigate crimes that have already happened. There are far many more crimes prevented by the victim with his/her own gun than prevented by LE. Just because thats the way it goes down. Just the way it is and always will be. Police would love to be able to be there and prevent it. They just cannot be everywhere all the time. Its your responsibilty to protect yourself. They are Public safety not personal safety.

[wjr]

Me[/B] on the 1st page]Here are my opinions on this matter. I would like to preface my post by saying that I still respect your opinions, and I do not mean any of this to sound rude.

1) I do not think students carrying guns to school, ready to kill at a moments notice, would be conducive to a learning environment.

2) Students aren't being denied their rights by not being allowed guns to their school.

3) This was a freak incident and is not a common occurrence. There must have been signs in the kids behavior. The best way to prevent this kind of thing is to stop it before it starts, not after it reaches the boiling point.

Edit: Added another point

4) More security guards or police officers on campus would make more sense then the students patrolling themselves.

I was right.

The kid was seriously disturbed. He'd been arrested twice before for stalking two people, he wrote violent plays and papers, and his english teacher recognized that he had serious anger issues.

This could have been stopped without firing a shot.

Not that they should known he was going to kill 32 people, but they should have suggested he go to therapy or something. Seeing as how he was arrested for stalking, I'm pretty sure they could have examined his mental state and forced him go to some sort of, uh... Luny Bin.

[Lohman446]

I'd like to add that I'm not sure what percentage of owners/CCW are sufficiently trained to respond to a crisis in the manner commonly described. I suspect that a good amount of CCW people will participate in at least semi-regular training. I bet another solid amount train very regularly. That said, comparing to LE or military is somewhat preposterous to me.

I think you would be drastically alarmed how little ongoing training non-specialty law enforcement officers receive in situations involving guns.

[geekwarrior]

I was right.

The kid was seriously disturbed. He'd been arrested twice before for stalking two people, he wrote violent plays and papers, and his english teacher recognized that he had serious anger issues.

This could have been stopped without firing a shot.

Not that they should known he was going to kill 32 people, but they should have suggested he go to therapy or something. Seeing as how he was arrested for stalking, I'm pretty sure they could have examined his mental state and forced him go to some sort of, uh... Luny Bin.

they did, the courts sent him to a mental hospital.

thats the real problem here. when a student is so deranged that 90% of his classmates stop showing up to class, when a prof has a code word to their assistants in case this student gets violent, when he starts a fire in a dormitory, when teachers hear about the shootings and immediately connect it to him, don't you at some point say "hey, this guy needs some serious looking into, and cant come back to school till he's normal." If anyone of us pulled any of that crap in the workplace, we would be fired.