Is increased ROF good or bad for the sport?

[Aslan]

I know this topic has been done before...and possibly to death...but bare with me while I revisit it from hopefully a different angle.

I went to the field today, a new field I haven't played before. A few woodsball kids showed up but mostly speedball players...and good ones, sponsored tourney level players with $600-$1500 markers. We ended up playing speedball and hyperball since the number of woodsball players was relatively small.

What happened that made me think about this was that we had some new kids playing. They were absolutely intimidated on the field by the firepower that was out there. It made me think, is increased ROF discouraging younger, new players from getting involved?

The opposite arguement is that there are alot of teenage players attracted to the sport by the increased ROF and the fact that such style of play is now on television and there are high school teams, etc...

My trouble in thinking about this is that I really think that paintball has taken big steps in recent years in part due to speedball and higher ROF markers. In the last 10 years, the sport has gone from something on par with lazer tag to an ESPN 2 covered sport. I don't think that can be dismissed.

However...after seeing what I saw today, it made me wonder. I see kids go to the field...new to paintball...and they are trying to return fire with a VL Orion or a rental gun and they are getting pounded by shockers, Minis, Egos, PMs, and DMs. I know that one of the reasons was because they just weren't that good at paintball...but even I had trouble against the increased ROF and I've been playing for years. The opposition moved and communicated well...but they couldn't move the way they did without their ROF. They could pin down opponents by just laying fire onto a location and walking towards it.

I don't know, I admit there is nothing that can be done about the trend towards higher ROF...but after today it made me wonder if the higher ROF isn't pushing the younger generation and new players away. It might be more interesting for the teens already involved, but so far I'ev seen it as a negative with the younger kids that would fuel the future of the sport.

Any thoughts?

[mr doo doo]

people who rip lasers at me intimidate me

i barely shoot 10 bps, while they keep me underfire with 25 bps, WHAT CAN I DO!?!?

[MedicDVG]

Precisely why I play pump and also mostly woods with a good group. I enjoy reffing speedball more then I like playing it.

[kenndogg]

I say no being that one can easily pick an e-spyder, etippmann or ion for cheap.
I see this all the time at my field. Newer players using these cheap e-markers are actually holding their own. Their only weakness is playing at a highly competitve level which comes with experience.

[Coralis]

Personally i think there should should be some standard for rec ball that includes a bps limit, then perhaps makers of electronic markers could include a rec ball mode that wont exceed that limit, ( for example lets just say 10 bps ramped where ramping doesnt occur until after the 4th trigger pull). Now I know alot of people will disagree with me but i think the firepower now available is discouraging new players from taking up the game and limiting the growth of the sport.

[Ninjeff]

Interesting debate.

Im coming at it from a slightly unique perspective. Ive been playing 10 years, well, let me correct that: ive been PLAYING for about 5 years. As i took sometime off from the game and maybe only played once a season.....(started in 97, stopped playing all the time in 01, and dindt play from 02 to 06, play every weekend now :) )

I was on a sponsored team for 3 years, and played the tourney scene. Of course, that was back in 99-01 so the rof was no where near what it is today. So, needless to say i have experiance, and though im not in NEAR the shape i was then, i can still play a field pretty good.

But i digress.

We go to the same local field every weekend. Sometimes we play all day, and other times we just play a game or two. Still, i am one of those players that have a fast marker (e-Mag) and i do wear a jersey, and all the rest of my gear. I often hear murmers from some of the new players. the typical stuff: "i want him on MY team" or "I dont wanna play that guy, he'll kill me" and such things. i always feel bad, and explain that just because i have my own gear, and a fast gun, doesnt MAKE me a better player than any of them. I often use a friend who plays pump as an example. I say "Well, that guy right there is using a PUMP gun, and he is far better than i am. I'd be worried about him" And i also try to mix up what team im on as much as i can.
Still, sometimes i can hear the fear in some newer players when i rip off alot of paint at the chrono station. While walking back i get the usual comments and questions. Sometimes its actually a BAD thing as my presence causes some players to NOT play in the group that im in. This happened last weekend. Towards the end of the day a ref tried to combine two groups into one for a good solid woodsball game. One of the guys from the other group REFUSED to play because we (my friends and I) had played earlier and he had seen us. He made all the typical commenst about how they would get killer, and shot up, and hurt and "had no chance" and that it was pointless. I told the guy that we werent even PLAYING anymore, and we were just there to hang out. We also offered to let them use OUR guns to play with. But the guy outright refused, and kept his group from joining the other one.
Im sure this is a unique example, but i really felt terrible. Aweful actually.

When i play i dont go 100%. Especially when im playing new rec players. I dont make all the crazy moves i could make, i dont rip strings of paint unless i HAVE to. I just play leisurely and try to move with the new players so i can give them advice. I dont play 100% for two reasons. 1. I dont NEED to. Ive been there, done that. Ive played tourney ball, ive been down that road of hard work, dedication and brutal compitition. Now i just play for FUN. Just to be around the game. I dont need to make nutty runs on new players to prove i still can. Because really, it doesnt PROVE anything.
and 2: The biggest reason, is because i want the new players to have fun. More than anything i want to see them get the bug like i have it. I want to see their eyes light up when they play this sport and realize its the only sport for them. I want them to come back again and again. ANd i know that ripping 15bps strings of paint at a bunker while i do a run through on thier buddies IS NOT going to do that. I just kick around the field and play for FUN. I always like winning. But i would rather see someone have fun than say "i eliminated 12 guys today". I still play hard, but after years of experiance i have learned how hard to play according to the crowd.

So, all of that being said, i dont think its ROF that would turn anyone off of the game per se', i think its the general attitude of the players and the respect for the sport and new players that would turn people off. When i see "tourney players" play on a field with some newbs and run around the field pouring paint at them and ruling the field i get upset. I would hope that they would play the game a little looser, more conservative, and give the new players a chance to have fun. Or they would go find the proper challenge and crowd for them to show off their skillz with.

For me, im buying a pistol. Ive been wanting one for a long time, and in addition to saving money on paint, it would be more conducive to allowing me to make crazy moves, run around the field coaching and entertaining new players ( being a mobile bunker is fun, and makes the kids laugh). It would also teach me how to snap shoot better, and thats my weakest ability right now.

[Pneumagger]

Firepower is not good nor bad for the sport... it's a moot point. Historically the sport has been growing sice the 80s while ROF and firepower as been increasing as well, though i doubt there is a strong link between the two observations. In the past few years we've had the best technology ever and the sport as a whole is plateauing - infact many have begun shifting toward pump play recently.

I believe paintball growth has stalled due to marketability. As paintball looses it's renaissance hype it had the past 5 years, it needs something else to keep atracting people, and marketability for the tourney scene just seems unmarketable. I'm not talking about the concept of people running around shooting each other and a sportlike structure - I'm talking about players, teams, and attittude.

1)Players - most sports have a high degree of athleticism. Athletes tune their bodies to their sport and display a skill uncommon and entertaining. The majority of paintballers are not necessarily skilled. Sure, there are a select few players in paintball that train like pro athletes should, but in any major professional sport every player on the field and bench puts forth that sort of commitment and it takes skill to step out on a field.... however looking at the bulk of "pro" players, you see average joes out there weilding expensive equipment and displaying mildly active skills. You can be 300 pounds, fat, and be a professional backman player as long as you have lots of money and fast fingers.
That's just not very marketable, people without a prior passion for the sport aren't going to be pulled in average persons.

2)Teams - Teams are always in a constant state of flux, players swap around local teams like their a bunch of pokemon cards. When all the dozens of D1 Pro teams come from only a handful of cities, it just doesn't produce an active loyal fanbase - it'd be like 4 pro football teams coming from Dallas alone... just not representative of a marketable sport. Also, with such names as "Stoned Assassins" and other juvenile names it is a political nigtmare for outside industries to provide sponsorship. Furthermore, teams play in like 5 different leagues... paintball needs to agree on one league and one set of rules.

3) Attitude - If I had to choose one word to describe pro attitudes, I would have to choose either condescending or immature. Pro level players need to step up and realize they are the figureheads in a blossoming sport, and need to act as such and ensure the positive image of paintball from their end of the sport. Paintball has a reputation for dishonesty both on and off the field. Off the field there is always an onslaught of leag problems and litigation and all sorts of muck that does not display a stable sport. On the field there is cheating, as with every sport. But the fanbase for every other sport doesn't condone it to the extent that paintball does. People claim cheating is a "skill" and "needed to win" and "part of the game". Ballers need to realize, as with every sport, that cheating occurs in games and should not be part of the game - that's why there's rules. I have seen time and again people congratulating cheaters for a "job well done" [cheating] and other people defending cheaters and MANUFACTURES making cheater producs. It'll be a cold day in hell when a professional athlete from any major sport gets a high five for shooting up steroids or get a standing ovation because he stepped out of bounds and got away with it. It's hard to promote and market a sport on the national and professional level when a primary message to young players openly implies "Champions Cheat".

Paintball will continue to stagnate until it cleans itself up and becomes more marketable. It doesn't matter if the players are using pump guns or electros. Am I generalizing in this rant? Yes, and i am well aware that these descriptions dont apply to 100% of ballers... but it applies to most and that's a huge hurdle for the sport of paintball and it's image to overcome. AGD, Tippman, Kingman, WGP... they all had the right concept years ago and that concept got abhorred and abused. No surprise though, no different than the rest of the world as of late.

/rant
//if you want 10 minutes of your life back please send paypal request to [email protected]

[Ninjeff]

Pneumagger everything you wrote is dead on point.

everything.

Well done.

[phat4life07]

Pneumagger, I'm very impressed

[Aslan]

I agree that attitudes are a problem. I also have said many times that cheating is a problem.

But those two things weren't the problems I saw yesterday. The "good" players actually were off-duty refs from that field and were really nice guys. I was acttually surprised at how nice they were. Sure, later on a few jerks showed up...I felt like punching one kid because as I came off the field he looked at my camo and classic Mag and said, "You're not really equiped to play this style of game." But to be honest, I was more pissed that I had just gotten shot out than I was at his comment. And then later on in the day we did have the 1-3 times where players started arguing about players wiping or running through etc...

The intimidation factor I saw yesterday was purely related to firepower. Sure, a newb can get an e-spyder for relatively cheap...but that's actually the BIGGEST mistake I see newbs make because they don't realize that a gun on full auto without eyes that is being gravity fed or fed too slowly is simply a fancy blender...but that's another story. What I saw were kids that were scared because they had mechs and these tourney players had massively faster guns. Even I...and I tend not to get very intimidated because I've held my own against these players in the past with my mech Mag...but even I finally just started sitting out and left early because it was pointless. I played a game of speedball on this smaller than regulation field and I literally couldn't come out of my bunker. There was just a constant stream of paint on both sides of the bunker. I finally popped my head out quickly to see where the guys were and I got nailed in the head. The kids tried to play speedball earlier and had similar luck...they would end up just frozen behind a back bunker and not even moving.

One of the kids that was there with his friends said he only plays in the woods and won't play at the field because he's too afraid. That's what really made me think about this question. It's so sad to see 7-11 year olds that are all bright-eyed about playing paintball suddenly sit out every game with their heads down.

The first time I started to see this as a problem was a few year's a go when the field I frequented got rid of "classes". They use to have a novice and advanced level. If your equipment was at a certain level(air, electros, electronic hoppers), you had to play advanced. This seperated out experienced players as well as players with better equipment, seperating them from the newbs, birthday parties, and general rec players. That system worked great and was alot of fun. Other fields have done similar things like banning ramping in rec play, etc... Ever since the field changed to just an "open class", you continue to see a few guys show up with dominant firepower and mow down newbs. And if the attitudes and cheating is there as well, then that's an added problem.

I just thought about this topic because yesterday was the worst I've seen it regarding younger, woodsball players and even older, more experienced guys like me get pretty much shut out of the competition. I have to admit I've been thinking of finally giving up on mech play and buying an A-5, PM6, or E-Mag. I mean, I don't mind going to a field and facing a team with some pistols who tear me up because they are really good players, move well, communicate well, etc... But when I get mowed down or pinned down by less skilled players who simply have an extra $600 in their marker....that kinda bothers me.

[FiXeL]

The first time I started to see this as a problem was a few year's a go when the field I frequented got rid of "classes". They use to have a novice and advanced level. If your equipment was at a certain level(air, electros, electronic hoppers), you had to play advanced. This seperated out experienced players as well as players with better equipment, seperating them from the newbs, birthday parties, and general rec players. That system worked great and was alot of fun. Other fields have done similar things like banning ramping in rec play, etc... Ever since the field changed to just an "open class", you continue to see a few guys show up with dominant firepower and mow down newbs. And if the attitudes and cheating is there as well, then that's an added problem.

One of the fields in the netherlands changed their walk-on days in a similar fasion... 1st and 3rd sunday of the month is for anything you bring to the field, en 2nd and 4th is non-electro or pump. I think this is a good idea, because alot of new players get easily intimidated when you bring a fast gun on the field. I recognise alot in the previous posts, and i agree that something like a bps limit would be a good idea for rec fields. I play woods with a xmag, but i play with it in semi mode or capped electronic mode (8-12 bps max) and alot of times i just use my minimag.

Using a fast gun in rec games is not fair for the players that have non-electro semi's. Winning the game should be done with skills, not with firepower.

[punkncat]

Great for paint manufacturers, bad for the sport.

[Aslan]

Using a fast gun in rec games is not fair for the players that have non-electro semi's. Winning the game should be done with skills, not with firepower.

Great point Fixel. I liked the classes as well. The problems the field had with the classes was that it became harder to classify guns. It used to be that cocker and Mag players were more experienced and would get bumped up into the advanced class because they would use Air tanks. Then Tippmann came out with their A-5 with cyclone feed and managed to bypass the "electro hopper" restriction. Then Tippmann came out with a response trigger which was technically not electronic so they either needed to change their rules to furce response triggers to play advanced or they needed to let response triggers in beginning class. Since this field has very close ties to Tippmann and didn't want to hurt sales of response triggers and the like (their sales)...bye bye classes.

There was a tournament recently that I was going to sign up for. It was a "mech only" 3 man woodsball tournament. The only problem was they were not going to ban response triggers. That just seemed really stupid to me. I would have went to the trouble of organizing a team and driving pretty far away to go to this tournament...but not if I'm immediately at a 1-2 disadvantage in ROF. It was a nice idea though...I wish there were more mech only type tournaments.

As for pump, that's a tough one. I like playing pump...but I like actual pumps. Many of the high end "pumps" you see nowadays the pump stroke is so short or the people can hold the pump arm back and fire semi auto...to me that's not really a pump...but I'd still probably take the Brute out and try my luck in a pump tournament...it would certainly save on paint.

[Aslan]

Great for paint manufacturers, bad for the sport.

I hate paint manufactuers They ruin everything!

Very true though. Except ya know what...I used about a half a case of paint yesterday because in 2 of the 7 games I played in I didn't even get a shot off and in another I didn't even make it through a hopper before getting tagged. I'd actually love to use up some paint to be honest...it's last year's paint and I'm worried it will go bad before I get to play again.

[Ninjeff]

I'll say again, its not the rate of fire, but the people behind the trigger.

If they are playing younger kids they should know not to play the way you describe. If they dont know that, then its a problem with respect on their part.

My mag will do 15+bps without breaking a sweat, but i have enough respect to not do 15 bps when playing with younger kids, or generally newer players.

Its not the ROF killing the sport at all. Its the "Im the best ever, look at how i smashed those nOObs" attitude.