Is increased ROF good or bad for the sport?

[chill will]

[RogueFactor]

Didn't we have this same conversation before? About a decade ago when Angels started pushing out cockers and mags from the tourney arena ??? Or was it that other time before that, when semiauto guns started pushing out pumps, and fields were starting to allow both on Saturdays, instead of just having open day on Sunday...

We did. The only difference now being that the player isnt shooting every shot. A computer program is shooting paintballs that the player isnt pulling the trigger for. By removing the shooting skill required to play the game, you are also removing the point of playing a shooting sport.

[bryceeden]

From a shop owners perspective the high rate of fire is good as it equils more paint sales. Now the retarded PBN mentality thats killing the sport coupled with high ROF is bad. Good players with high ROF that take it easy on new players and make sure everyone has a good time are great. The loosers who feel the need to light everyone up and pick on noobs are morons and drive away the next generation of players. Also on high rate of fire if players are forced to use NPPL legal markers very few can pass 13BPS and even less can beat 15, I've yet to see anyone who can actually break 17bps when tested by accurate means as opposed to the BPS moniter of thier Ego. Now thats not to say they don't claim 25 BPS but when called out and checked their not even close.

[RRfireblade]

If it means anything , the field our last two meets and the next FPPL tourny is being held at , had a ratio of something like 5 to 1 woods to speedball. I think on the overall level , rec still out weighs speedball heavily (always have too) so I wouldn't worry too much about it. That being said tho , RT Tippys are still the marker of choice with that crowd.

As I'm sure has been said (didn't read all 3 pages), it of course works both ways. "Easy" ROF has always attracted players to the game. Every sport in existance has tried to make the game easier to play to attract more people . . . oversize golf clubs , aluminum bats , big headed tennis raquest etc. It's just the way things progess , the difference is wether or not the spirit of the game gets jeopardize because of it. I think in paintballs case , it has somewhat but I think that in the long run it will level out to somewhere between the 2 extremes.

On a side note , should I even bother to tell you'll what happend when our 15-18 person pump group took on the WHOLE rest of the feilds semi/speed/tourny players (20+) for an all out battle to the death ?

Let's just say it was ugly . . . real ugly.

[Aslan]

I'm Back

I don't know if I should be proud that my thread took off and inspired so much interest...or ashamed of myself for opening an age old wound...

I think the thread got a little off topic. Everyone has their own feelings about ROF...some are like me and remember when we had most fun playing was with a couple Stingrays and a few Talons. But then others remind me that even then...the guy with the Stingray had an advantage so somebody showed up with a Raptor. Then a guy showed up with a Tippmann. Pretty soon that guy holding the Talon was like, "Hey...this isn't fun anymore!"

I started out over 10 years ago with a Tiger Shark and loved it. I played against semi-autos...but could hold my own. Unfortunately, my range was limited and I decided to upgrade to a Spyder. That gun lasted me years...and I still use it from time to time as a back-up. I never needed nor wanted an electro.

But the point of this post wasn't me belly-acheing about getting beat by electros. I'm a big boy...I can take it. What prompted the post was that I saw some kids who really weren't having the fun I had when I started playing. They weren't so much afraid...they were...but it was more than that. They looked at the other players the way a guy riding the bus looks at someone in a convertible with babes in the back. They looked disappointed, like paintball wasn't something they could afford to be good at. And that made me sad. I wanted to tell them that I play with an old Classic, nothing fancy, and I hold my own. But after that day of getting my can handed to me I really couldn't do that.

I don't know how to fix things. Maybe I can fix my problems by just buying an electro and joining the party. I don't know how to help the kids though. Maybe paintball will just be a sport for the rich, like Golf, or tennis, or polo, or ice skating.

[drg]

Aslan, regarding your original post and concern ... I think it's not the ROF or the equipment or even the players -- it's the format.

Speedball of any type, but ESPECIALLY airball or other solid-barrier field types, is a very technical game. It requires a style of play that does not come naturally to people, with its emphasis on sticking tight to the edges of cover and snapshooting from contorted body positions. How many times do you see noobs on the speedball field, playing loose -- you can just tell by their mannerisms that they are newer players -- and you know they are going to get shot out of every game they play in with even moderately experienced players, probably without scoring a single kill themselves.

In speedball, the recycle concept is extremely rare. There are no second chances. Distances are short, so even at the start of the game you have little time to actually take stock of what is happening, leading to mass confusion for new players. Cover is opaque, with sharply defined edges, and often arranged in such ways that it's easy to be "moved on" and taken out without even noticing the other player.

Natural-barrier, woodsball-type of play is more suited to new players. Let's face it, on a minute-by-minute basis, playing woodsball is outright easier than speedball. Or at least it's a lot more forgiving. And even if you are being dominated, at least you can see more of your opponent (through brush or what have you), and can shoot in his direction perhaps even at his piece of cover, trying to sneak one through, rather than shooting dead air most of the time as in speedball.

Woodsball fields are larger, giving players more time to think and more options as to the intensity of conflict they want to engage in. You can screw around, play "army" or what have you, and have a reasonable chance of staying in the game a while. On speedball fields, it's pretty much balls to the wall the whole game, play or die. A few seconds of inattention or sloppy play and you're gone.

So I think the things you are seeing are actually attributable to the rise of speedball rather than the increase of gun technology. Heck some of the most dominant teams I see are pump teams, and it ain't any more fun to play against them if you get destroyed. If anything it's less fun!

I came to speedball with 14 years of experience as a player. I did some reasearch about the style of play, I bought into that style, I even built a faster gun before I even set foot on a speedball field. And I still had no idea what I was doing when I got into it. The style of play is remarkably different and on the whole a lot more difficult to overcome a lack of experience -- or field layout knowledge. I am still not very good at speedball two years later.

I don't think I have ever played in the woods and not had fun, but I can say there are times after playing speedball that I did not have all that much fun in a day of play. If I had started out on the speedball field, I'm not sure I'd have ever fallen in love with the sport.

I'd wager most of the time it's not geting "hit" that scares new players the most (once they get past their first few whacks) ... or even old players. Adrenaline covers the pain in most situations, especially among new players just feeling the "rush". That's fun in itself. But when you can't play ... you DEFINITELY aren't having any fun.

[evil]

in response to the OP.

i in fact hate to see BPS caps in tournaments, why not just make us play with pumps. i also hate to see new players renting 15 year old technology, most of the time unable to competitively play and never returning; either done with the paintball thing or playing that lame airsoft crap.

ive been playing for a very long time and i can still recall the first time an angel LED walked out on the field. it was fast, way way way faster than my 3-4 bps rental gun. the rate of fire was nearly triple the rental guns speed. it was scary back then especially when i found out how much it cost.

what is happening today is a HUGE lag in Technological advancements of low end rental geared equipment. and you can thank sue happy SP for parts of that. the average rental gun is still some old crappy Tippman that still shoots 6-7BPS (if your lucky), its been this way for the better part of a decade. all the while high end guns slowly got faster and cheaper. you would think that this would trickle down and create a low priced marker with decent reliability, serviceability, and good performance. this unfortunately is not ever going to happen, with ridiculously broad patents.

basically lower end rental guns have gone unchanged because of a Price Point control method used by SP. lower cost manufacturing and development has been stifled because of this. if this nonsense was stopped and it legally could be, you may see in the next couple of years ion type performance in the hands of renters. is it wrong for someone to want to shoot 31bps? or is it wrong for someone to want 31bps and end up with 6?

the moment i was able to afford an electo i bought one, it was a piece of crap defiant, and still cost me $500. ive owned every gun under the sun and if it cost me my unborn children to have a one up on the competition then so be it. i like to stand by the saying "just because you don't have it doesn't mean i shouldn't".

fanboys, marketing, and manufacturing is slowly killing paintballs newer generations. ROF is nothing if you cant hit someone with a single ball.

this was all my beliefs and opinions so take however you will. i just try not to over shoot noobs and i like to give them tips on how they should play with crappy rentals, i hope that me being nice will bring them back or at least let them see how fun it could be if they commit.

[Ninjeff]

i beleive its capped at 15 bps as more of a safety concern than anything else.

I dont want 30 balls flying at me because then there is almost no way not to bonus ball. Its just not safe.

[nathanjones008]

high rof

I see good and bad things in high rof. I think its bad for kids to start off with ions shockers and dms and pmrs. etc... They should start off with a non electric gun, learn how to work on it and to fix it first, so they can appreciate it fully. Then as they get better and more into it i see nothing wrong with a higher in gun. To make a long story short high rof is great for the expericed player and not to good for the nood.


I have seen noobs with brand new shockers and cockers with (rich) parents buy there kids these guns, these kids have no idea how to fix them!

[Aslan]

i in fact hate to see BPS caps in tournaments, why not just make us play with pumps. i also hate to see new players renting 15 year old technology, most of the time unable to competitively play and never returning; either done with the paintball thing or playing that lame airsoft crap.

I think you're proving my point that paintball has become a sport that just plain requires a huge investment and eventually will become a very niche sport. Paintball is actually very unique in that way. Most sports require very little monetary investment. I can think of only Golf, Ice Skating, and maybe ice hockey or tennis...maybe sport shooting... Paintball has gotten very popular...and I don't want to say some of that is absolutely due to higher end, flashier, "Agg" equipment. Obviously being on ESPN2 helps. Speedball fields have allowed fields to spring up in places where woodsball fields are just not there.

The thing that makes me uncomfortable is that the price of the sport is getting out of hand. Everyone (except Lohman) complains about paint prices...but oh well...that's part of the game. But when you start to add the price of higher end guns and the added paint you'll need to throw with those guns...paintball becomes OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive.

And the arguement has always been, that you don't need to throw that much paint to be competitive. What I've seen recently is, you do. I here people talk about pump players and how they're so scary and good and pump play is getting to be popular...but so far I've "seen" very little but "heard" alot. Players talk about the satisfaction of getting people out with a pump...well, that's great...but if you get 2 kills and get hit 6 times...is that good? The bottom line is if you're pump team could walk on the field and take out a decent team of players using electros...you'd see teams doing that ALL THE TIME to save money on paint that quite frankly they don't need to shoot. You just don't see that. Not anywhere around me anyways. I saw one mech woodsball tournament advertised, but they allowed response triggers so what's the point?

I guess what I'm saying is that it's a shame that paintball's great surge over the past few years has the chance of being held down by the fact that it has become a game that costs $600-$2400 to get into and $140-$180 per day to play. You can't just say, "Oh well, pay to play, that's the way it is."...because it didn't USED TO be that way. Paintball 7 years ago certainly had elements of different levels of markers and other equipment...but the bottom guns could still "compete" with the higher guns. Higher end guns were still limited by finger speed and hopper feed rates. Now guns are completely unlimited.

And yes, bonus balling is a problem. I used to get hit 1-3 times duck down, check myself, call myself out, and maybe on the way out I get hit 1-2 more times. Now I get hit 7-10 times before I can even duck down and check and then I get hit another 3-7 times on the way out with my gun above my head. It's just rediculous.

[C.J.]

I've ranted about "infinity BPS" before so I'll try not to this time.

If you're a pro, you need to have the same gear as the other guys in order to be competitive. You can expect them to have similar skill level, team work, experience etc as you. Your sponsors won't be please to see you handicap yourself by using, say, a pump or pistol on the pro-circuit.

Outside of pro-circles, player attitude will either make for a good or bad day of paintball.

The other weekend, my field welcomed two new kids who just bought their own gear (Spyders, IIRC) and who were still learning.

I played some two-on-one with them and limited the game to "Mexican stand-off" - the middle of the field is "hot lava" and you can't cross over. It's great for practicing snap shooting, AIMING and so forth without worrying about someone running down field and shooting you in the back of the head.

I had a bunch of chances to take both kids out but instead I moved around and took shots at the bunker next to them to remind them I could have hit them if I'd wanted. That game lasted 15 minutes and they loved it, learning a lot in the process. (eventually got them in the masks with single snap shots... no bruises, easy clean-up)

*** *** ***

I shoot a mech' Automag. One shot is enough for me but that hasn't always been the case.

I used to own an SP-8 with a T-Board. That marker was a beast. While I was learning how the play, it was a crutch. I could keep whole teams at bay by spraying a few dozen - or a few hundred - shots across their path.

I'll never forget the game that changed my attitude. I was up against a team of walk ons and I saw a couple of them trying to sneak through a tunnel to the other end of the field. I let the SP-8 rip a string into them. They screamed and raised their hands. I have no idea how many times I hit them but I probably felt worse than they did. I got rid of the SP-8 shortly thereafter and went mech.

WardenWolf on SpecOps (also here, I believe) used to have a sig I liked. It went something like:

"If your opponent doesn't look forward to their next chance to play against you, you've failed in your duty as a paintballer."

I can't think of a more fitting attitude. Make the game fun for everyone.

A final note: I don't think children should be using electros. They act as "enablers" - you're giving an immature mind a tool with the ability to inflict a lot of damage. I used it as a crutch - you can bet they're going to and they're not going to know when to stop.

[Aslan]

"If your opponent doesn't look forward to their next chance to play against you, you've failed in your duty as a paintballer."

Very nice.

Me and my friend played in a big game two weeks ago. The cool thing was that we really had a good time and he started to get really pumped about paintball. Unfortunately, he quickly realized that to really be competitive with most of the other guys out there he needed to upgrade his equipment significantly.

He started saying that he wished there was a place where we could play that was just pumps and that the best time he ever had playing was playing pumps in the 2.5 acre field/woods behind my parents house. If I had a quarter for every time I heard an old timer say something to that effect, I'd be able to afford to help upgrade my buddy's equipment. Maybe it's just nostalgia, but when you hear it enough...ya start to wonder why ya keep hearing it.