Is increased ROF good or bad for the sport?

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  • RogueFactor
    Registered User
    • Dec 2001
    • 633

    #16
    Originally posted by Pneumagger
    Firepower is not good nor bad for the sport... it's a moot point. Historically the sport has been growing sice the 80s while ROF and firepower as been increasing as well, though i doubt there is a strong link between the two observations. In the past few years we've had the best technology ever and the sport as a whole is plateauing - infact many have begun shifting toward pump play recently.

    I believe paintball growth has stalled due to marketability. As paintball looses it's renaissance hype it had the past 5 years, it needs something else to keep atracting people, and marketability for the tourney scene just seems unmarketable. I'm not talking about the concept of people running around shooting each other and a sportlike structure - I'm talking about players, teams, and attittude.

    1)Players - most sports have a high degree of athleticism. Athletes tune their bodies to their sport and display a skill uncommon and entertaining. The majority of paintballers are not necessarily skilled. Sure, there are a select few players in paintball that train like pro athletes should, but in any major professional sport every player on the field and bench puts forth that sort of commitment and it takes skill to step out on a field.... however looking at the bulk of "pro" players, you see average joes out there weilding expensive equipment and displaying mildly active skills. You can be 300 pounds, fat, and be a professional backman player as long as you have lots of money and fast fingers.
    That's just not very marketable, people without a prior passion for the sport aren't going to be pulled in average persons.

    2)Teams - Teams are always in a constant state of flux, players swap around local teams like their a bunch of pokemon cards. When all the dozens of D1 Pro teams come from only a handful of cities, it just doesn't produce an active loyal fanbase - it'd be like 4 pro football teams coming from Dallas alone... just not representative of a marketable sport. Also, with such names as "Stoned Assassins" and other juvenile names it is a political nigtmare for outside industries to provide sponsorship. Furthermore, teams play in like 5 different leagues... paintball needs to agree on one league and one set of rules.

    3) Attitude - If I had to choose one word to describe pro attitudes, I would have to choose either condescending or immature. Pro level players need to step up and realize they are the figureheads in a blossoming sport, and need to act as such and ensure the positive image of paintball from their end of the sport. Paintball has a reputation for dishonesty both on and off the field. Off the field there is always an onslaught of leag problems and litigation and all sorts of muck that does not display a stable sport. On the field there is cheating, as with every sport. But the fanbase for every other sport doesn't condone it to the extent that paintball does. People claim cheating is a "skill" and "needed to win" and "part of the game". Ballers need to realize, as with every sport, that cheating occurs in games and should not be part of the game - that's why there's rules. I have seen time and again people congratulating cheaters for a "job well done" [cheating] and other people defending cheaters and MANUFACTURES making cheater producs. It'll be a cold day in hell when a professional athlete from any major sport gets a high five for shooting up steroids or get a standing ovation because he stepped out of bounds and got away with it. It's hard to promote and market a sport on the national and professional level when a primary message to young players openly implies "Champions Cheat".

    Paintball will continue to stagnate until it cleans itself up and becomes more marketable. It doesn't matter if the players are using pump guns or electros. Am I generalizing in this rant? Yes, and i am well aware that these descriptions dont apply to 100% of ballers... but it applies to most and that's a huge hurdle for the sport of paintball and it's image to overcome. AGD, Tippman, Kingman, WGP... they all had the right concept years ago and that concept got abhorred and abused. No surprise though, no different than the rest of the world as of late.

    /rant
    //if you want 10 minutes of your life back please send paypal request to [email protected]
    Good post.

    You dont even need fast fingers in most 'Pro' Leagues. Money buys that skill too

    High ROF attained from skill: Good for the sport
    Artificially high ROF attained from buying a computer chip: Bad for the sport
    Last edited by RogueFactor; 07-08-2007, 02:01 PM. Reason: spelling

    Comment

    • Zone Drifter
      Here and there...

      • Mar 2007
      • 541

      #17
      Lost of good posts, goes to show that theres still people out there who think for the sport.

      A week ago while visiting relatives i began thinking, what if one day i decided to open up my own place? You know what i would have there? Simply pistols, pumps and single trigger mechanicals guns. I guess owning that Tiberius rifle got me in the minset that i should really make my shots count since its only a single trigger mechanical. Playing other guys with e-grip tippmans and still beating them with probably 70% less paint and air just using tactics is such an ego booster, i love it.

      If you give a kid something like a pro classic as a rental, or even those tippmann 98's, thats what they think the sport is all about and when they go out there and some guys show up with ions and starts beating on them with paint, well then the respect for the talent goes down the toilet. I remember going to a local small field with using my rt pro with warp, and believe me, i got some stares and questions about my gun. I told them its no different from their guns, that mine simply feeds from the side because i dont like getting hit in the hopper. I even let some kid use it and i think i converted him to mags. XD There was another guy playing that day with a home built mag, had a single trigger and e-mag valve. He was holding his own no problem, and probably only use like 50% of the paint that those ion guys were using.

      Case in point, i remember when a semi was the craze, and i hadn't even heard of a full auto paintball gun, that was like phantasy. To be honest, thats when i had the most fun playing. One time my friends and i went out and each bought a cheap talon, then went in the woods and played all day with one case of paint and Co2 cartridges. It was so awesome.

      If i ever do open a field, you can bed i'll be going all mechanical. It would be a place that everyone can have lots of fun at.

      Comment

      • mostpeople
        Registered User
        • Mar 2007
        • 1680

        #18
        And you'd eliminate 50% of the people who would otherwise play there.

        Technology is good, and debating whether full auto is better than semi auto is better than stock class is better than ramping etc... whatever.

        The technology is here, and if you are going to go out there to win then take out there whatever you want. If you want to play phantom in x-ball do it, dont whine about it. Personally I look out there and I see everyone using ramping electro's, so what am I going to do? Take out my ramping electro and then BAM I have just evened the playing field and it now comes down to skill.

        One can argue, with ramping or full auto one does not need skill, wrong. If the playing field is level then its ALL about skill. And if you refuse to embrace the new technology then the field is not even, and is skewed in their favor. Again do what you want, but lets be realistic here.

        This doesnt mean I dont support that new all mechanical leage thats supposedly coming out.. but we shall see if that ever pans out.

        Comment

        • iambored
          I dare YOU to think!
          • Jul 2006
          • 463

          #19
          My take on the ROF stuff:
          Oh yeah? Your gun might be fancy and shoot fast and spit eye-beams. But mine is cheaper!
          Oh and ROF increase always bad.

          Comment

          • Ninjeff
            it only takes one.
            • Jan 2007
            • 1205

            #20
            Originally posted by mostpeople
            And you'd eliminate 50% of the people who would otherwise play there.

            Technology is good, and debating whether full auto is better than semi auto is better than stock class is better than ramping etc... whatever.

            The technology is here, and if you are going to go out there to win then take out there whatever you want. If you want to play phantom in x-ball do it, dont whine about it. Personally I look out there and I see everyone using ramping electro's, so what am I going to do? Take out my ramping electro and then BAM I have just evened the playing field and it now comes down to skill.

            One can argue, with ramping or full auto one does not need skill, wrong. If the playing field is level then its ALL about skill. And if you refuse to embrace the new technology then the field is not even, and is skewed in their favor. Again do what you want, but lets be realistic here.

            This doesnt mean I dont support that new all mechanical leage thats supposedly coming out.. but we shall see if that ever pans out.

            but the original post was about the effect the high ROF has on new players. If you want to be realistic, then lets be realistic. Most people cant, or dont want, to shell out a few hundred bucks for a gun, a hundred or so for a hp tank, and then another $60 AT LEAST every time they go to play.
            So just because these kids dont have the ability to buy electronic, or even because its thier first time they should be on an un even playing field because of it?

            Comment

            • RogueFactor
              Registered User
              • Dec 2001
              • 633

              #21
              Originally posted by mostpeople
              If the playing field is level then its ALL about skill.
              A sport isnt about making the playing field level. If the playing field is level(everyone can ramp), then its NOTHING about skill(shooting skill that is). This is still a shooting sport.

              Again do what you want, but lets be realistic here.

              Comment

              • olinar
                mech>electro
                • May 2006
                • 1777

                #22
                i guess this is exactly why this will never be an Olympic event or anything of the like. skill and talent come in a box. the more you pay for the box the more talent it comes with. i try to stay out of the tournament scene because it just doesnt fit my playing style. when me and my friends play we just go out and have fun. as a matter of fact my friends are telling me to get rid of my emaggo frame so as to make it fair. im not the best player in my group but no one wants to play against me when i have access to such high rates of fire. i guess its bad for my game but i have no idea how it effects everyone else's.

                Comment

                • Pneumagger
                  I like 'Mags.

                  • Jun 2006
                  • 3556

                  #23
                  It's more of a mental hurdle the newbs have to overcome. Whenever I 1 on 1 with josh, me with electro and josh with pump, he beats me. Once we shot each other out at the same time... I took it as a victory.

                  Although it's tough to learn skills like moving, posting up, etc with more experieced kids unloading 4 pods every game.

                  Comment

                  • paintballfiend
                    I like pudding.
                    • Jun 2006
                    • 555

                    #24
                    I don't think we must to accomidate the fear of new players. All you should do is tell them to get over it or go home.

                    Comment

                    • kruger
                      KRUGER GRIPS

                      • Jun 2004
                      • 1915

                      #25
                      Originally posted by paintballfiend
                      I don't think we must to accomidate the fear of new players. All you should do is tell them to get over it or go home.
                      Sorry, I disagree with this statement. I spend a lot of time at the field encouraging "new" players. The 15 BPS on a bunker can make an intimidating sound for people who are not used to what it means. And the more care that you spend with a new, young player makes him a more courteous experienced player. If a new player is treated badly and he decides to stay with paintball and play, then that is the way that he will treat "newbs" when he playes with them. This is just a game, and should be treated as such. Arrogant, uncaring players are one of the reasons that speedball has a tarnished image.
                      WOW, sigs. Havent seen these in a while here on AO.

                      Comment

                      • paintballfiend
                        I like pudding.
                        • Jun 2006
                        • 555

                        #26
                        So if I tell a kid to get over his fear or he will have a crappy time that is me being arrogant and uncaring?

                        Comment

                        • mostpeople
                          Registered User
                          • Mar 2007
                          • 1680

                          #27
                          Originally posted by RogueFactor
                          A sport isnt about making the playing field level. If the playing field is level(everyone can ramp), then its NOTHING about skill(shooting skill that is). This is still a shooting sport.

                          Again do what you want, but lets be realistic here.

                          We've discussed this at length, and im not sure you've ever understood me on this point. Its hard to explain, but regardless of what you say everyone out there will do what they want. I dont have the luxury of always playing who I want, and im sure a lot of others dont either. And when those people are taking out ego's, shockers, DM's and you are out there with your classic, your tippman its just not fun.

                          So my point is, if they are doing it, which they obviously are. Why not take the same technology and use it to your advantage as well? So you are negating the fact that their marker wtfpwns yours, and going out there on an even playing field.

                          Maybe you like a challenge, maybe you think its ub0r to go out against those people with those high end electros with your mags. So be it - just dont complain about it.

                          Comment

                          • mostpeople
                            Registered User
                            • Mar 2007
                            • 1680

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Ninjeff
                            but the original post was about the effect the high ROF has on new players. If you want to be realistic, then lets be realistic. Most people cant, or dont want, to shell out a few hundred bucks for a gun, a hundred or so for a hp tank, and then another $60 AT LEAST every time they go to play.
                            So just because these kids dont have the ability to buy electronic, or even because its thier first time they should be on an un even playing field because of it?

                            Its called life

                            I have the ability to buy those guns, the paint, the tanks etc..

                            But Im also a reasonable guy, I will turn my marker to semi automatic if im playing a bunch of rec ballers, and they ask -- I dont care.

                            Comment

                            • RogueFactor
                              Registered User
                              • Dec 2001
                              • 633

                              #29
                              Originally posted by mostpeople
                              Why not take the same technology and use it to your advantage as well? So you are negating the fact that their marker wtfpwns yours, and going out there on an even playing field.
                              The 'everyone else is doing it, I should too' position. The same arguments thats been used for cheating...And everyone wonders why this game is declining.

                              Simple answer...Because this game shouldnt be about technology, it should be about skill.

                              Originally posted by mostpeople
                              Maybe you like a challenge,
                              Of course! If it isnt a challenge, whats the point. This is, and should be, a game based on skill and should always be a challenge, its the only way to get better.

                              Im not a big fan of 'God-Mode', it removes the challenge, making the endeavor pointless.

                              Comment

                              • kruger
                                KRUGER GRIPS

                                • Jun 2004
                                • 1915

                                #30
                                Originally posted by paintballfiend
                                I don't think we must to accomidate the fear of new players.
                                This is the part of you statement that I was taking issue with. We both know that if you can overcome your fear of something, then you are on the road to mastery of it. Saying it and doing it are two different things. I have seen 11 yo take hits that would make me squint, and not say a word, and I have seen 17 yo guys cry over the slightest hits. If you dont take into consideration another persons fear, then you are a part of the problem, not the solution. Now, that does not mean that you coddle them, but it does mean that you offer a reasonable amount of encouragement. I am not talking hand holding here. There is a line, and it is different in each case, as to what is "reasonable".
                                WOW, sigs. Havent seen these in a while here on AO.

                                Comment

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