AO'ers help revive AGD

[speed_ga]

I completely agree. In fact, if AGD were to allow me to use their logos or banners that they already have I would be happy to go to the local fields 1 weekend per month and setup a booth in the parking lot (I know the owners of the fields.. They'd let me) with a couple of customized classics, tac-1's, an RT-ULE, and my pneu. Play a few rounds with the pneu and I bet people will come by and check it out. Good idea custar!

haha you really think that would help AGD revive it's downfall over the past few years. Lets face it....AGD ran out of money, ideas, and good principle economics. They by far have a great gun....but haven't updated it. And all you AGD fanboys will say "if it doesn't have any faults let it be" well what if humans never thought about producing a heater instead of using a old fashioned circle pit fire. Would you want to have gazing flames in your living room...probley not. And where i'm getting at here is that AGD is LAZY!!! JUST plain and simple. They don't want to expand there company...produce new parts.....or change it's plan in designing a nice electro like the emag was. It's makes me laugh how jokable AGD really is. They can't accomplish anything that will get them to move forward in the paintball industry. I mean what Bill Gates stopped at windows 95. Hahahaha!! What a bunch of fools some people are to support AGD after they are downsizing and therefore in the future eliminating AGD as a name and as a product on the paintball market.

[Sumthinwicked]

your on this site for what ??????like i said before if you only have 29 posts sthu noob

[stevewar]

haha you really think that would help AGD revive it's downfall over the past few years. Lets face it....AGD ran out of money, ideas, and good principle economics. They by far have a great gun....but haven't updated it. And all you AGD fanboys will say "if it doesn't have any faults let it be" well what if humans never thought about producing a heater instead of using a old fashioned circle pit fire. Would you want to have gazing flames in your living room...probley not. And where i'm getting at here is that AGD is LAZY!!! JUST plain and simple. They don't want to expand there company...produce new parts.....or change it's plan in designing a nice electro like the emag was. It's makes me laugh how jokable AGD really is. They can't accomplish anything that will get them to move forward in the paintball industry. I mean what Bill Gates stopped at windows 95. Hahahaha!! What a bunch of fools some people are to support AGD after they are downsizing and therefore in the future eliminating AGD as a name and as a product on the paintball market.

This is an AGD forum. If you don't like them that is ok, you do not have to. I just don't understand why you would waiste your time posting on a board that is for fans of the company and the product. I think you should stop trying to stir the pot here and use your time for something productive.

[warbeak2099]

This is an AGD forum. If you don't like them that is ok, you do not have to. I just don't understand why you would waiste your time posting on a board that is for fans of the company and the product. I think you should stop trying to stir the pot here and use your time for something productive.

Look, everyone wants AGD to do well. But they aren't doing anything for themselves, so what do you want us to do?

You want to know how AGD can expand again? They've got to market themselves better, especially to the scenario/woods market.

Oh, and I'm not going to have a PM conversation with you so you can go on a rant about how speedball is a bunch of no-talent losers running around with no tactics or planning or organization. I can't even begin to explain to you how much planning, communication, tactics, coordination and organization it takes to create a successful speedball team. The tactics are different yes, but they are still there. Sorry, but you're just wrong. And speedball wasn't created for TV, it was created as a more mainstream competitive format for paintball. The thing that's hurting paintball are people like you that make idiotic blanket statements and can't realize that both formats are PAINTBALL. So back the hell off when it's obvious you don't know anything about speedball. And get off your high horse too, no one cares for it.

[RogueFactor]

Oh, and I'm not going to have a PM conversation with you so you can go on a rant about how speedball is a bunch of no-talent losers running around with no tactics or planning or organization. I can't even begin to explain to you how much planning, communication, tactics, coordination and organization it takes to create a successful speedball team. The tactics are different yes, but they are still there. Sorry, but you're just wrong. And speedball wasn't created for TV, it was created as a more mainstream competitive format for paintball. The thing that's hurting paintball are people like you that make idiotic blanket statements and can't realize that both formats are PAINTBALL. So back the hell off when it's obvious you don't know anything about speedball. And get off your high horse too, no one cares for it.

I care for it. He isnt on a high horse, you are. Stevewar is ON POINT with his post.

Ive never cared for rabidchihauhau's SPIN tactics, but he has been around a long time. He also holds the first patent for a todays tournament style format of paintball. So his viewpoint, and the following quotes are pertinent to this conversation:

Paintball suffers from many ills, but one of the leading causes of its issues is the 'Marching Morons' problem.

(The Marching Morons is a great short story by CM Kornbluth and I've stolen its title for this theory)

Its also called the 'least common denominator' theory and it essentially boils down to this:

For ANY special interest to become economically successful, it MUST dumb itself down in order to appeal to a wider market. In paintball, this has taken the form of emphasizing technology over skill, or providing technological crutches for those who have little skill, and in making the requirements for 'entry' easier and easier.

Back when tournaments consisted of 15 player teams, getting a team together was a major hurdle. The skill set required at tournaments was high and less-able team organizers were naturally selected out of the mix. This selection process resulted in limiting the number of real teams at any one time to between 20 and 30.

What did the 'industry' do? It cut team size; those teams that could never find a 13th, 14th, 15th player now didn't have to worry about it, cause all they needed was 10. That wasn't enough, so they went to 7, then to 5 and finally to 3 (grandma and the grandkids can now enter a team into national tournaments...)

This dumbing down of team size (many more less-able teams can enter events, reducing overall competition levels and allowing less-able teams to win or place well) is compounded by statistical issues: a single elimination of a player on a 15 player team represents only 6.6% of that team's strength; 10% of a ten man team's, 14% of a 7 player's, 20% of a five players and 33% of a three player team's.

Now let's consider 'luck'. We all know that 'the breaks' contribute to the outcome of every single game; misfires, broken balls, bounces, ref calls, etc. If based only on the pecentage of a team's strength represented by a single player, we can see that ANY eliminations from 'luck' have a much greater impact on a team the smaller the team size is.

While that's a pretty obvious fact, what isn't so obvious is what it really means: luck - not skill - plays a far larger role (more than two times as much) in today's tournaments than it used to...

So yes, things did use to be much better when it comes to skill. No surprise - even the illiterate can get patents these days.....

I will post more from rabidchihauhau, so the point is made clear...

[RogueFactor]

Another one for ya warbeak2099...

Paintball's learning curve is never-ending; there is ALWAYS a new way to look at things, a new 'trick', a different way.

With that said: back in the day, a GOOD woodsball team wasn't 'good' until they had at least two seasons under their belt.

Speedball/airball was just something you did to get a couple of quick games in, waste some paint and do a little running around.

The woodsball skill set is competely transferable to airball fields.

The airball skillset is not transferable to woodsball

Without exception, every single top present day tournament team has a coach, a leader or an owner who was a top woodsball player. In my opinion, that fact alone lays to rest the question of which is 'harder', which requires more skill - its woodsball and it always will be.

Woods ball encouraged thinking on your feet; you needed to know distances at a glance, you needed to have an intimate knowledge of all different kinds of terrain and how they 'played'. You needed to know psychology. You needed to be able to shoot (as in AIM), you also needed other shooting skills (snap shoot, rapid fire, blind shooting); you needed to be able to run, dive, crawl, crouch, duck walk, slither, climb. You needed to be able to hide - you needed to be able to make a team-sized ruckus.

Woods skills, logistics, timing, shooting skills, movement skills, concealment skills, psychology, gamesmanship, analytical skills, dead reckoning, etc, were all required to be a good player.

On the airball field you (used to) need a fast finger and fast legs - and that's about it.

The better players and teams (all legacies of woodsball) apply field reading, psychology, timing and all the rest TO the airball game, which is why they are constantly on top.

You'll NEVER master this game (no one can) and you'll never get good if all you know how to do is spin around, pull the trigger while running, slide behind a balloon and then fire into a shooting lane.

[warbeak2099]

Oh I'm sorry I'll bow down now before the great Rogue. Obviously I was wrong and speedball is his horrible monster and it doesn't require any skill. There's no planning or organization in it nor is there any strategy involved. It's just a bunch of yahoos running around spraying out 30bps.

Thanks for correcting me Rogue






:dodgy:

[RogueFactor]

Oh I'm sorry I'll bow down now before the great Rogue. Obviously I was wrong and speedball is his horrible monster and it doesn't require any skill. There's no planning or organization in it nor is there any strategy involved. It's just a bunch of yahoos running around spraying out 30bps.

Thanks for correcting me Rogue

:dodgy:

Steve has been in paintball since before you were born. You should bow down. Is that your foot?

BOHICA!

[warbeak2099]

Steve has been in paintball since before you were born. You should bow down. Is that your foot?

BOHICA!

That doesn't make it right when he makes such an idiotic statement. Yes, speedball and woodsball both involve different methods, but you have to use strategy and tactics in both. It's ignorant to say that speedball is not strategic. Like I said before, it involved coordination, strategy, planning, communication, etc. I don't care how long you've been playing, when you make a stupid comment, it's still a stupid comment.

[kenndogg]

Fanboys are what ruin AGD. AGD should of never tried and please the handful of fanboys here on the forums. AGD could of put out a golden piece of crap and the fanboys would still be eating it up. Look at the z grip and warp feed, both were garbage. But guess what fanboys all raved about. They never sold well and in the end that hurt them in the long run. Of course the zombies will never admit it and just use the excuse of "these products were just ahead of their time."
You got the same zombies that trash 3rd party manufacturer just b/c its not AGD or rogue, or tuna. Just browse the G-Force and xmagterror threads and you'll see.

[warbeak2099]

Fanboys are what ruin AGD. AGD should of never tried and please the handful of fanboys here on the forums. AGD could of put out a golden piece of crap and the fanboys would still be eating it up. Look at the z grip and warp feed, both were garbage. But guess what fanboys all raved about. They never sold well and in the end that hurt them in the long run. Of course the zombies will never admit it and just use the excuse of "these products were just ahead of their time."
You got the same zombies that trash 3rd party manufacturer just b/c its not AGD or rogue, or tuna. Just browse the G-Force and xmagterror threads and you'll see.

1. The warpfeed was actually a pretty cool product and people other than mag shooters used it.
2. The Z-grip did give rise to more comfortable styles of gripframes like the Y-frame for mags, and 90* and hybrid frames for other guns.
3. We treated G-force poorly because the guy made an announcement without any kind of proof or pictures. He was unprofessional at best.

I agree that fanboys are stupid, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

[RogueFactor]

That doesn't make it right when he makes such an idiotic statement.

His vastly greater knowledge and experience lends more weight to his statements than yours.

You can call him an idiot if you want, it only makes you look like more of one.

I don't care how long you've been playing, when you make a stupid comment, it's still a stupid comment.

I know, I know. Youre young, and know everything. We were all there at one time.

Stupid comments are those made without the knowledge and experience needed to make them. I already know which of you 2 that is

BOHICA!

[pepple84]

who wants to be the bigger man and move this off topic (but informative and fun) postings to another thread

there have been some very key points made in here and i'd like to throw in my 2 cents. AGD is a manufacturer of a product, people like rogue are the re-sellers. we need more people like that to distribute the products. AGD can create a new and innovative marketing strategy to push their products but unless they have dealers to get their products out in the market their advertisements won't help.

i understand there is a lot more to this problem (if you want to call that) but personally i take pride in the marker i use. i think we should all demonstrate that on the field and our products will sell themselves.

[/end rant]

[stevewar]

That doesn't make it right when he makes such an idiotic statement. Yes, speedball and woodsball both involve different methods, but you have to use strategy and tactics in both. It's ignorant to say that speedball is not strategic. Like I said before, it involved coordination, strategy, planning, communication, etc. I don't care how long you've been playing, when you make a stupid comment, it's still a stupid comment.

By the way, I never said that there were no tactics or strategies involved. I said they were far more simplistic. And don't presume that I've never played because I've probably played more than speedball than you. I gave the example "give 1 player on 1 team 2 paint grenades," and asked a simple question which you still have not answered so I will do it for you. The answer is, the team with the grenades will win every time, so it completely ruins the game. Let's go down your llist of points.

1. Speedball requires coordination - Yes it does. It requires coverage of flanks, lanes, and angles in order for any forward progress to be made.

2. Strategy and planning - You can talk to me about teams who plan their strategy all you want, but the bottom line is that it boils down to which barrier does your sprinters rush for, and who sits back and plays long ball. Everything after that is a mish mash of ad libbing and communications. You don't figure out fall back points, pinch points. You don't organize wedges and send out flankers. There just aren't enough people

3. Communications - Speedball requires constant communication, no doubt about that. However, you can just yell to your entire team. It doesn't require and stealth or surprise. The other team can hear you, so they know exactly what you are doing.

With the hope of ending this discussion I will concede that speedball takes talent and practice in order to be proficient. I just don't think it's a good way to introduce new players and thus new AGD customers to paintball

[Ninjeff]

i dont know why you guys always have to fight about speedball/woodsball. They are completely different.


Its like comparing NASCAR to Rally Racing.

Yea, sure, you need to know how to drive a car for both, but in the end its two totally different beasts.