Ya know, I am about "over it".....

[snoopay700]

punkncat - I have to say that the opening post of this thread was probably one of the most mature things written in a public forum that does not handle classical music as it main topic. I smiled when I read it. Mostly because I knew that many knee jerk reactionary anti SP zombie heads exploded a la "Scanners" upon reading it. Thank you, with those exploding heads the gene pool got a little deeper.

Ok, now for my two cents:

No, I do not agree with the bussines tactics that Smart Parts has employed. But, much like Wal-Mart is might be an unaviodable evil for those of us who are forced to do things like pay car insurance, rent, taxes, utilities, phones bills etc. See, I am pushing thirty. The folks stopped bankrolling me long, long ago. So, yes when I was in high school it was easy to take money I made and buy the uber expensive items. I mean, c'mon what was rent, utilities, or insurance? Now that I am older sometimes cheaper is not so much a bad thing. I've recently been looking at getting back into paintball and have been leaning towards SP because I can get a shocker for about half of what I would pay for an angel. Not that I would not rather have an angel, but money talks.
But, by and large, we are a community of pubescent and postpubescent males and a few females. What anyone chooses to spent money is not your bussiness, but rather their own. If they want to post pics and show off their new toy, and if you do not have anything positive to say or an actual earnest question to ask... leave it be. Just smile to yourself.
I remember when this whole thing went down... someone made a sig pic that showed the SP crosshairs morphing into a swastika. That kind of disturbed me. Made these forums look like some sort of awful white pride garbage dump.
But I digress...
Here is the absoltue bottom line:
Most of YOU would have done the same thing SP has done. I know that I would have if I could have gotten away with it. Ensure the life of my company for years, make more money, and put competetors out of business. Is it sneaky, underhanded, and downright mean? Yup. Bear that in mind next time your mom takes you to Wal-Mart to buy underwear. But, let's not forget that millions of dollars are at stake and that every company has the over all goal of making money. Do you know what the companys that did not put profit near the top are called? "Bankrupt."
Not that I do not like AGD, but I am in the market for an electro... and they just do not make one anymore, and the Shocker is the best thing in my price range. Sorry but facts are facts.
Welcome to everyday life, you can find your apron and cap in the office, and remember that the new sandiwch came out today so push the combo.

Ok first thing i want to address here is that you assume all people that have a quarrel with smart parts feels they have to voice their opinion at every opportunity. I don't happen to like the company for a number of reasons, however i don't go around to everyone who has a smart parts marker and tell them how much i hate them, but if the topic comes up i will talk about it. I happen to know that there are a lot of people like this, but there are also a lot of people who just outright bash it at every opportunity. Please don't lump us into the same category.

As for cheaper being a good thing, i'm turning 20 this fall and i can respect that. Back when i got my markers i bought them used because it was a way to save money, and now that i am thinking about a new marker for if i start playing more next summer i know i can take comfort in the fact that there are great markers in the sub $350 range. I believe in the saying that the best way to let companies know what you want is to vote with your wallet, so i'm not going to buy from sp, even if i have to buy a used marker to get what i want. Saying that they are the only opportunity, especially when you are looking at a shocker, is just foolish. There are plenty of markers for around the same price or cheaper than a shocker that is as good if not better than a shocker regarding efficiency and weight (pretty much the only things that would make marker a better than marker b taking out personal preference regarding how it feels and such).

I also just want to put out there that i'm not going to pretend that sp doesn't make decent markers, i've had experience with some of them and they were fairly decent (although both of my run ins with shockers both of them had huge problems with the o-rings).

I agree that i have no right to tell anyone else what to buy, but when suggesting a marker i will suggest markers that are in the same price range as smart parts markers that have the same, if not better quality. I completely agree about the swastika avatar, i've seen it before and it's definitely too far. I already touched on the whole bashing people who already own them.

Also i have to agree with Shirow, i would not have done the same thing if i was in their position. If i had a business one of the main ideas behind it would be integrity, and i would think that doing something illegal would affect that image to my customers, so i can honestly say i would not act the same. I can name other people in this industry who have even opted to not patent a design so that it could help the sport grow.

So yeah, i tried to keep this post as clear as i could, but to sum it up, if you do have a problem with what smart parts has done then there is no reason to buy from them when there are plenty of other choices in the same range.

[Lohman446]

Know what? You're correct. Absolutely, positively, correct.

Anyone disputing what you've said should go watch the film "The Corporation."
Corporations are required by law to put one item above all others: profit. Philanthropy, playing fair and "being a nice guy" all come second.

I have no interest in any Smart Parts products so it would be easy for me to say "I don't buy SP gear."

Except, the other day, I did buy one. I bought a new Max Flo S.I.S. tank regulator. I did so because it actually had features I couldn't get in other regs. It's TINY, durable and available.

I'd rather be a shareholder in Smart Parts than AGD and I own an Automag and prefer them over any SP marker.

SP is privately held, and no a corporation is not required to put profit above all else. I will promise you that none of them I am involved in running will put profit before integrity. They are not held by nameless shareholders, they are held in this case by family. "We have to go for profit" is a BS excuse people use to get away with anything. Its simply not true. You have to be profitable to jsutify existance, you do not have to be so profitable as to run over every moral "bump" in the name of profit.

PS: I think they made a quality (enough) product. No not as good as AGD. I think they have a right to protect intellectual property (I think they bent the rules and took it way too far). I am normally an SP defender. However, "I did it for profit" is not an excuse, and needs to quit being accepted by the American people as a reason for a "no holds barred" attitude.

[Shirow]

SP is privately held, and no a corporation is not required to put profit above all else. I will promise you that none of them I am involved in running will put profit before integrity. They are not held by nameless shareholders, they are held in this case by family. "We have to go for profit" is a BS excuse people use to get away with anything. Its simply not true. You have to be profitable to jsutify existance, you do not have to be so profitable as to run over every moral "bump" in the name of profit.

PS: I think they made a quality (enough) product. No not as good as AGD. I think they have a right to protect intellectual property (I think they bent the rules and took it way too far). I am normally an SP defender. However, "I did it for profit" is not an excuse, and needs to quit being accepted by the American people as a reason for a "no holds barred" attitude.

Well said. Citing a movie is not valid backup to your claims

Yes, there are immoral companies out there. Yes, some of them have made a lot of money. You know what happened to some of the others? Enron is a name you might've heard of.

There ARE moral companies out there with integrity that are successful and make a profit.

You know what this thread has helped me do is to know who not to buy things from on the B/S/T forum - if your viewpoint is profit > * I'm not sure I want to risk sending you my money

[snoopay700]

SP is privately held, and no a corporation is not required to put profit above all else. I will promise you that none of them I am involved in running will put profit before integrity. They are not held by nameless shareholders, they are held in this case by family. "We have to go for profit" is a BS excuse people use to get away with anything. Its simply not true. You have to be profitable to jsutify existance, you do not have to be so profitable as to run over every moral "bump" in the name of profit.

PS: I think they made a quality (enough) product. No not as good as AGD. I think they have a right to protect intellectual property (I think they bent the rules and took it way too far). I am normally an SP defender. However, "I did it for profit" is not an excuse, and needs to quit being accepted by the American people as a reason for a "no holds barred" attitude.

Man, this is really odd, this is the second time i've found myself agreeing with you recently, and we usually have differing opinions on a lot of things.

But yeah, profit is never an excuse to sacrifice integrity. I mean back when AGD was one of the top two names in the business they got there by having integrity. Like Shirow said, there are companies that are successful that don't sacrifice integrity for profit.

[Lohman446]

Painting with a broad brush there Shirow. If someone bought something from me on the forum, in "new" condition, then decided they didn't like the colour, I would bend over and lose money to accept it in return, to maintain a 100% positive feedback rating.

As for SP: I wasn't aware it wasn't publicly traded. My point about the profit motive had to do with publicly traded corporations.

Publicly traded companies are NOT required to seek profit over all else. They are beholden to the stockholders and whatever motivates them, or more to the point there voting for the board or proxy votes. Some prefer to invest in a company with clearer long term goals than the profit now mentality. Some prefer to invest in companies with goals that are on a more moral level than profit now. Granted, most people invest with no consideration, but there is nothing saying a corporation has to seek as much profit as possible regardless of what it takes. The point is still wrong.

His point about not dealing with someone who has a viewpoint of profit over all else is not as much an attack as a point. You and I, and millions of other Americans find the view distasteful. We would never apply it to our personal or business dealings and yet we accept it easily when it is handed to us by people "just doing their job". Its BS. A lot of soldiers in history have followed orders and killed and tortured under the concept of "just doing their jobs" its not a valid excuse for that or any other immoral actions. Why do we accept it so easily from corporate America? No excuses, morality is morality, and allowing profit to come before morality shows a lack thereof. Why would you trust a corporation that does such? We need to respond to such outrages - just as people vote against SP with $$ so do we against those in corporate America who think the "just doing my job" nonsense excuses gross behavior.

[Shirow]

Painting with a broad brush there Shirow. If someone bought something from me on the forum, in "new" condition, then decided they didn't like the colour, I would bend over and lose money to accept it in return, to maintain a 100% positive feedback rating.

As for SP: I wasn't aware it wasn't publicly traded. My point about the profit motive had to do with publicly traded corporations.

CJ - just want to say, I was trying to make a point more than directly insult anyone. However - to be clear - the point I am making is that if a person validates 'profit over all' as an accepted lifestyle then I would assume they would apply that same belief to their own business tradings.

If not, it doesn't make sense to me that someone could accept that behavior from a company (which is nothing but a group of people making decisions) but find it unacceptable from an individual.

Capitalism is cool. Capitalism is great. That being said, morality and 'doing the right thing' is more important in life than money. If every company and every individual picked one thing they would pursue - money, fame, power or whatever - and pursued it as their top priority.. the world would be a hideous place.

[SR_matt]

i think the big issue in the SP situation (and in many other corporate groups) is that there are 2 ideas of capitalism a) that a lure of profit will gain a better profit for cheaper but it is assumed that people will be ideal in the actions and moral/truthful/etc; b) that the biggest return is what one wants, yet has a disregard of how it is gotten there and as long as it is "legal" it is ok

an example being a jeweler could sell you a piece of "silver" jewelry, one company sells you a solid sterling piece that follows the international guidelines of 92.5% by weight of pure silver minimum marked sterling and another company can sell you something that looks the same but is copper that is plated with silver yet only marks it as silver. both companies are following the law yet the second company is cheating you.

americans have come to accept "capitalism" as an excuse for figuring out how to make a product cheaper and faster yet maybe not as good of a quality. all of the economic and political systems are based off the assumption that everyone will act as an ideal individual yet humans get greedy and stop to care about their fellow man. it is a much larger issue that just someone pushing the letter of the law, it is the visible evidence to show that our society just cares about me me me, and now now now.

people just no longer understand the idea that a more the cheap option is rarely as good yet who cares, when i break it i will buy another one. dont get me wrong i am all for buying cheaper if the product will still get the job done (hell i just bout 100 bucks worth of tools that if i bought the "good" or "correct" version would have cost me 500+ but in the end i do the same amount of work to modify the tools and in the end they will last pretty much the same amount of time) but when i buy something that gets ran into the ground (like a paintball marker, or a computer) or something that i need to rely on (a vehicle, a carry weapon) you bet your life i will drop the cash even if it gives me a reasonable higher level of trust in the product.

as to smart parts, i probably have said this already just idk if it was here, i feel they went past the letter and for sure the spirit of the law, i feel most of their products are subpar (i will give them the max flows are good regs) but frankly when i joked on some one for owning an ion by saying "fart parts" and got the response of "smart parts, smart choice ~phsssssssssssssssssssss~" when a line blew out just standing there that sure tells me that even karma says they are a bad company

-matt

[Shirow]

Well, there's this saying.. maybe some of you have heard it..

Quality always shoots straight.

[Shirow]

On this we agree Shirow, unconditionally.

I follow a blog you might be interested in: Umair Haque at Harvard. He has some very relevant comments to make about "finance 1.0" (Capitalism 1.0?) in light of the recent financial meltdown and this discussion. This is a particularly good post of his: http://blogs.harvardbusiness.org/haq...manifesto.html

We have similar tastes I've read that blog on occasion. He's a very astute guy.

[Tombola]

[ProblemKinder]

" Many companies have used the patent process to protect their intrest in a product. "

are we ignoring the fact that SP was protecting their interest in OTHER companies product, and then claimed it was their's all along?

are we ignoring the blatent disregard for compliance to proper patenting procedures that was practiced?

are you seriously posting this on THIS forum?

please don't assume that if SP hadn't 'done it' that somebody else would have. first of all, that does NOT, in ANY way justify the unethical actions. Secondly, don't be so quick to assume all paintball companies are as eager to throw business ethics out the window as SP was.

of course TK didn't get a C&D letter, he was smart enough to stop wasting money building a product he wouldn't be able to sell without paying SP rotalties they don't deserve. Had he kept building the E/X-mag he WOULD have gotten a C&D letter. duh.