Ya know, I am about "over it".....

[DevilMan]

fun guns.

hmmmm.... you must not have noticed that FUN and GUN are about the most 2 closely related words in the dictionary. They only differ in 1 letter.. The F or the G. And those letters are next to each other in the alphabet.

So I don't know how much closer you could get other than maybe ON and NO, but I think that FUN and GUN were meant to be together from the beginning.



DM

[snoopay700]

hmmmm.... you must not have noticed that FUN and GUN are about the most 2 closely related words in the dictionary. They only differ in 1 letter.. The F or the G. And those letters are next to each other in the alphabet.

So I don't know how much closer you could get other than maybe ON and NO, but I think that FUN and GUN were meant to be together from the beginning.



DM

That is generally true, but there are some guns that i've heard are no fun to shoot haha.

[Reiner]

its not the USPOs fault if the applicants simply lie.

Then there is something seriously wrong with the system if a patent can't be reversed if there is clear evidence that that the patent was undeservedly awarded. What's the point of having a system in place at all if all an applicant has to do is lie to get his/her patend awarded?

[DevilMan]

Then there is something seriously wrong with the system if a patent can't be reversed if there is clear evidence that that the patent was undeservedly awarded. What's the point of having a system in place at all if all an applicant has to do is lie to get his/her patend awarded?

Agreed as well. There was talk if I recall of getting it pulled. But again the people that got ruined in the meantime said to hell with it, because they are out anyway. So why bother? Now is it their fault? Partly. One of those things that if A didn't happen then B wouldn't have happened, the JKL wouldn't have happened.

Not really sure why it was not pulled truth be told, last I had kept up with it some of the folks were actually visiting the USPTO and talking to folks there and presenting the info appropriately.

But that's been a number of months so I don't know where it ever went.

This necrothread is just a continuation of a number of threads that were hot and heavy back in the day. But like a volcanic eruption. It has to settle sometime. Just a matter of what is destroyed in the process.

DM

[y0da900]

It's because of problems like this that the USPTO now has a prior arts submission program, where you are able to look at patent applications, and submit what you believe is prior art for their scrutiny in deciding the validity of the patent. Some people on MCB actually talked to the primary person at the USPTO responsible for sporting goods patents, and he was supposedly rather thankful at being shown some of the resources that the nerds in the sport have compiled - because he frankly had no idea where to look for paintball prior art, and was surprised at the amount that was out there.

[MAGslinger]

I would have less resentment if Smart Parts was just honest and said that they took advantage of the fact that no one had patented the technology. I remember the days before the Ion walked the earth, and though things have changed in paintball, I like it that way. They had pump players complaining about how "fast" the 68 Special was, and then when the Automag came out, they complained about how easy it was to fan the trigger, this argument has been around since paintball was invented. I like taking to my local field, I like being outgunned like its 'Nam and Charlie is out to get you, its fun when I have Angels and Ego's descending upon me and my trusty 68 Classic (well, maybe my Tac-One every now and then). If anything, the Ion has just brought more people into the sport, and younger players, that's a plus. Complain about the ROF all you want, if your a Milsim player, and you want to keep things real, keep in mind that in a real warzone soldiers don't whine about being outgunned . I think older players are opting for the better designs like the Automag, and the PPS Blazer. There is certainly a small minute trend back to the mechanical design. I don't care about the BS people put out about electronics being very in sync and having faster response, today on the paintball field it all comes down to what will be reliable, and work.

[corwin_160]

Honestly you really can't blame SP for that. Maybe the Gardners are sleaze, but in a business since, they did what any smart for profit company would do. They found a loop-hole and exploited it for their gain. This kind of stuff happens all the time, but for some reason the paintball community can't accept it. I have a theory why; paintball was built around honor in it's beginnings. Guys like Tom Kaye, Bud Orr, etc., made gentlemen agreements such as the 13 bps. When the industry exploded and people relized that millions could be made, this left the industry with two groups: Dwindling old school guys like Tom Kaye and business savvy guys like the Gardners. I think Tom Kaye sense of honor hurt AGD more than SP did. In the world of big business you best leave honor at the door.
It worked well for the Gardners.

[druid]

The problem is that kenndog's right. He's not agreeing that this is what SHOULD be done in business.......he's saying that it IS being done in business and it's not going away. Not in paintball, not in politics, not in the world of iPods or the computer you are typing on. It's a simple fact of life.......old school methods and 'ways of thinking' are falling to big-business and tycoon tactics. Like it or not, s wrong as we all know it is, its going to happen - and so long as the USPO hands out paper to those who lie (and no one steps up to challenge them in court), it's going to continue to happen and it won't ever stop.

Like it or not, nothing will change this...Just like you have your "AGD arm-chair commando's" or "selective weekend AGD warriors"......You know the type:

For every AGD lover, there are very FEW who are solely devoted to AGD. I can think of an immediate handful but of all those loyal Mag owners out there, how many own ANY other marker? If they were THAT devout, they wouldn't own Angels, vikings, Indian Creek, DMs or autocockers AT ALL. If they felt THAT strongly, they'd ONLY own AGD products. Yet we look around the picture threads of everything under the sun AND a Mag or few.

I know of one person on another forum who has a stack of AGDang-that-a-lotta-Mags.......but he STILL has other markers OTHER than Mags. He is, no doubt in my mind, a Mag fanatic and HUGE AGD supporter. The fact he owns SO MANY is proof enough for me....but then again I have to ask, "of all those Mags he owns, how many were actually purchased for AGD the company?" I don't know the answer but I would hazard a guess at "a few." Well, a "few" of the 20+ or so in his possession isn't really supporting the company is it? Not when the Mags are bought from other players.....and THEN there's the Angels (and others). Now before anyone gets the 'bright idea'.....I'm NOT slamming him ONE BIT. I'm simply playing "devil's advocate" about the matter and using him as one example (even though it's a bad example, it's just one observation)

Anyway.....

So what is the solution? Not buy from Smart Parts? That's not going to work, no matter how much people try. For every person that says "BAN SP!!" there are 16 others lining up to buy their gear - whether it be Ions, Epiphanies, Shockers - in both standard and PL.....or whatever. It's been tried before and failed. The only way to stop it is to take them to court. Who's going to do that? The Viking guys? Not likely. You? Me? Nope. So instead, let's all sit here and gripe about what "should and shouldn't" be.......while business is usual in the SP board room, laughing at all the "whiners" that [can] do nothing to stop them....

[DevilMan]

The problem is that kenndog's right. He's not agreeing that this is what SHOULD be done in business.......he's saying that it IS being done in business and it's not going away. Not in paintball, not in politics, not in the world of iPods or the computer you are typing on. It's a simple fact of life.......old school methods and 'ways of thinking' are falling to big-business and tycoon tactics. Like it or not, s wrong as we all know it is, its going to happen - and so long as the USPO hands out paper to those who lie (and no one steps up to challenge them in court), it's going to continue to happen and it won't ever stop.

Like it or not, nothing will change this...Just like you have your "AGD arm-chair commando's" or "selective weekend AGD warriors"......You know the type:

For every AGD lover, there are very FEW who are solely devoted to AGD. I can think of an immediate handful but of all those loyal Mag owners out there, how many own ANY other marker? If they were THAT devout, they wouldn't own Angels, vikings, Indian Creek, DMs or autocockers AT ALL. If they felt THAT strongly, they'd ONLY own AGD products. Yet we look around the picture threads of everything under the sun AND a Mag or few.

I know of one person on another forum who has a stack of AGDang-that-a-lotta-Mags.......but he STILL has other markers OTHER than Mags. He is, no doubt in my mind, a Mag fanatic and HUGE AGD supporter. The fact he owns SO MANY is proof enough for me....but then again I have to ask, "of all those Mags he owns, how many were actually purchased for AGD the company?" I don't know the answer but I would hazard a guess at "a few." Well, a "few" of the 20+ or so in his possession isn't really supporting the company is it? Not when the Mags are bought from other players.....and THEN there's the Angels (and others). Now before anyone gets the 'bright idea'.....I'm NOT slamming him ONE BIT. I'm simply playing "devil's advocate" about the matter and using him as one example (even though it's a bad example, it's just one observation)

Anyway.....

So what is the solution? Not buy from Smart Parts? That's not going to work, no matter how much people try. For every person that says "BAN SP!!" there are 16 others lining up to buy their gear - whether it be Ions, Epiphanies, Shockers - in both standard and PL.....or whatever. It's been tried before and failed. The only way to stop it is to take them to court. Who's going to do that? The Viking guys? Not likely. You? Me? Nope. So instead, let's all sit here and gripe about what "should and shouldn't" be.......while business is usual in the SP board room, laughing at all the "whiners" that [can] do nothing to stop them....

It's not about banning SP. It's about not supporting someone or their company because of poor bizness practices. It's no different than the feedback that you receive here. You get lots of bad feedback posted because you ship crappy stuff, lie about damage, take forever to get it out the door, then your products don't move half as fast as someone who takes pride in upholding a deal and making it smooth and getting the buyer the goods in a timely manner.

Someone once said, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

When there is an injustice being done in any and every facet of life and you do nothing about it then that's all it takes for evil to win. It's simple. Do I feel it's a lost cause? To some extent. But I also feel that if I am not part of the solution I am part of the problem. It's no different than someone who don't vote complaining about who is in office. All it took was enough people who said, "My vote don't matter" to give the other guy the win. If enough people said instead, "My vote does matter, and so does yours and yours and yours so lets go to the polls!" Then the world would be a different place.

As for the whiners? It's takes just as much time for you to type up something bashing the whiners and supporting SP as it does for me to type up something explaining SP's poor bizness ethics and shady deals. It's no different than if you found out that SP had all their stuff made by 7 year old kids who got paid a nickel a month to do so. Would you still support them?

It's a matter of those that caring standing up and saying that they care. Do I care if a PB marker even has a freakin battery in it? NO!!!!! Do you realize I have like 20 markers, some of the electro and most never see the field just because I shoot a mech with pocket hopper 90% of the time. It's not a "holier than thou" issue. And it's not a "I think you're a tool" issue. It's an issue of information dissemination about a company's poor ethics and even somewhat illegal dealings.

I could give you 1001 other examples of what they could do that would better shine the light on what I'm talking about if need be, but I'm thinking from the context of your post that isn't needed. Or at least hoping that it's not.

DM

[chinstrap]

Interesting...

Just an idea here:

If everyone who took the time to write an angry post on the internet about Smart Parts instead used those resources to snail mail/email/call/otherwise contact the patent office with some widely distributed "prior art" literature, it could get results. all it would take is a printable form letter and email. You can even get free postage if you put the target address as both addresses on an envelope.

See, if there's one thing I've learned dealing with any company is that even if you don't have the money to pursue legal action, you can still get them to do your bidding. The whole premise is based on "billable man hours".

If they pay their employees, say $15/hour, every hour of their time that you waste costs them $15, every ten hours costs them $150 and so on. Once it is made clear to the offending entity that they can eliminate a recurring drain on their resources by simply addressing a mistake they've made, they generally tend to do it.

Also, the higher up the person who's time your wasting, the better, since they usually get paid more.

This thread alone is almost a year old; think of how much of the patent office's time (and subsequently, money) could have been wasted over the past year.

[trippleRipple]

First of all this idea that the big businesses' modus operandi is shady, illegal, or immoral business practices is just wrong. Yes there are some real winners out there. But to sit here and think that is how the world as a whole works is just plain wrong.

Big companies got there, by and large, by hard work and innovation. If you are really interested in getting a glimpse of how big companies are making advances and becoming bigger read the book "The World is Flat" by Fredrick Douglas.

Next, if you really want to understand why AGD is where it is today go find an interview TK gave back in the day, http://www.paintmagazine.com/wpaint2/mag.shtml Its pretty clear from the interview just what was coming down the road for AGD.

Furthermore once TK sold AGD the main driving force behind innovation at AGD left the company. The fact that the company has survived is great for us who still enjoy playing old school PB but lets not kid ourselves AGD is not going to be releasing a new marker chock full of innovations any time soon.

As far as SP goes if you don't like their business practices don't buy their products. The truth is not everyone can afford to avoid SP. I remember when I first started playing PB I could not afford a mag or a cocker so I ended up buying a spyder. We want to lower barriers to entry not raise them.

Rant Off.

[snoopay700]

First of all this idea that the big businesses' modus operandi is shady, illegal, or immoral business practices is just bull****. Yes there are some real ******** out there. But to sit here and think that is how the world as a whole works is just plain wrong.

Big companies got there, by and large, by hard work and innovation. If you are really interested in getting a glimpse of how big companies are making advances and becoming bigger read the book "The World is Flat" by Fredrick Douglas.

Next, if you really want to understand why AGD is where it is today go find an interview TK gave back in the day, http://www.paintmagazine.com/wpaint2/mag.shtml Its pretty clear from the interview just what was coming down the road for AGD.

Furthermore once TK sold AGD the main driving force behind innovation at AGD left the company. The fact that the company has survived is great for us who still enjoy playing old school PB but lets not kid ourselves AGD is not going to be releasing a new marker chock full of innovations any time soon.

As far as SP goes if you don't like their business practices don't buy their products. The truth is not everyone can afford to avoid SP. I remember when I first started playing PB I could not afford a mag or a cocker so I ended up buying a spyder. We want to lower barriers to entry not raise them.

Rant Off.

I'd take those asterisks out of your post, those can get you banned.

Anyway, it's not simply them having bad business practices, it's about them having an illegal monopoly.

[Lohman446]

I'd take those asterisks out of your post, those can get you banned.

Anyway, it's not simply them having bad business practices, it's about them having an illegal monopoly.

I really don't see the monopoly. I see some patents that appear to those of us who don't know anything to be stretching it, but thats about it.

[snoopay700]

I really don't see the monopoly. I see some patents that appear to those of us who don't know anything to be stretching it, but thats about it.

It's not being stretched at all, pretty much any company that has an electronic marker pays royalties, and it's bogus because they don't deserve the patent.

[trippleRipple]

I'd take those asterisks out of your post, those can get you banned.

Anyway, it's not simply them having bad business practices, it's about them having an illegal monopoly.

By definition they have a very legal monopoly. Thats what a patent is; the law protects the intellectual property of the innovator.

You can argue that the patent has been issued to the wrong individual but this was throughly hashed out in the courts when it first came up. I imagine at some point the the value of royalties paid will justify taking this back to court if in fact there is a real claim.

If there was truely as much money in royalties as everyone likes to think and there was a real case there would be a long line of lawyers wanting to take the case to trial.

I am not an industry insider and I have not made any real effort to see if there are any law suites currently filed. But I have not heard of any so logic says there is no case and SP is just going about their legal business.

shrug.

Further more has it really stifled the development of marker technology? Not really. Markers shoot much faster then competition allows, accuracy or efficiency do not increase due to the electronics, weight is not really tied to the electronics. The price of an ego or a DM has nothing to do with the SP royalties. There are plenty of great electronic guns in the 200-300$ range. Seriously who cares?!

P.S. The asterisks were put there by a moderator