Ya know, I am about "over it".....

[warbeak2099]

why don't all you smart parts *** kissers just go to a sp board? i would'nt spend one penny on anything sp. how can you come here, and start this crap over and over. ok! we get it...you like sp and we like honest companys(with high class product). really, this is not needed here. go away. i need an emag...

Punkcat is NOT an uninformed SP *** kisser. I just think he is misunderstanding the situation. SP is not just a company that has business smarts. They are a company that conducts itself without business ethics. A company that concentrated more on private profit than the market as a whole. These companies are frowned upon in the real world because they harm the general market. But in the immature world of paintball, it's totally ok for a company to do such things. People in paintball actually think that business and ethics don't belong in the same sentence. This is just ignorant as hell. It shows how little these people understand about the real business world. Paintball business isn't conducted by professionals with MB's, it's conducted by people with such a rudimentary understanding of business that they think the Gardner brothers are just smart guys. It's sad really.

[ThePixelGuru]

why don't all you smart parts *** kissers just go to a sp board? i would'nt spend one penny on anything sp. how can you come here, and start this crap over and over. ok! we get it...you like sp and we like honest companys(with high class product). really, this is not needed here. go away. i need an emag...

Wow, thanks for proving Punkncat's point and undermining ours. It's really hard to assert that you're just having an intelligent debate based on the facts when the thread is peppered with borderline flames like this. I may not agree with Punkncat in this particular circumstance, but at least I respect him enough to finish reading his post.

Also, don't trigger the cuss filter. Probably best to change that before the mods see it, or even better, just delete your post.

[robnix]

Wow, thanks for proving Punkncat's point and undermining ours. It's really hard to assert that you're just having an intelligent debate based on the facts when the thread is peppered with borderline flames like this. I may not agree with Punkncat in this particular circumstance, but at least I respect him enough to finish reading his post.

Also, don't trigger the cuss filter. Probably best to change that before the mods see it, or even better, just delete your post.

Exactly.

[bound for glory]

i won't delete my post for anyone. i'm no pbn kid. i'm a 40 year old family man whos been in the game scince 1984. i remember the gardners from the all american days. when they use to turn up at wolfs lair(now emr). they were jerks back then, should'nt expect them to have changed. and this is a agd forum. go tell someone who cares that sp is'nt to blame for the state of affairs that have hurt some good companys. people who start crap threads like this are sad little boys who post more than play. they are mostly newer players with no idea of the old days of this sport. they forget that at one time, respectable people designed products for the players, not just to bully others and turn out sub par products just to get richer. sp and their fan boys blow.

[ThePixelGuru]

i won't delete my post for anyone. i'm no pbn kid. i'm a 40 year old family man whos been in the game scince 1984. i remember the gardners from the all american days. when they use to turn up at wolfs lair(now emr). they were jerks back then, should'nt expect them to have changed. and this is a agd forum. go tell someone who cares that sp is'nt to blame for the state of affairs that have hurt some good companys. people who start crap threads like this are sad little boys who post more than play. they are mostly newer players with no idea of the old days of this sport. they forget that at one time, respectable people designed products for the players, not just to bully others and turn out sub par products just to get richer. sp and their fan boys blow.

Okay, but I'd expect in 40 years that perhaps you'd learned how to express these sentiments tactfully. I don't have to be a 40 year old family man to know that people listen more to well-reasoned, calm arguments than they do to the kind of disrespectful crap you're spewing. I respect Punkncat and he respects me, so when we disagree about something (like how much the average paintballer should care about SP) we can actually have a meaningful discussion rather than just yelling at each other to get the hell out.

Posts like yours don't add anything to the discussion; moreover, they're just more angry opinions that may or may not be backed by facts. We don't know if you have any reason for believing what you do, or if you've spent 40 years collecting baseless opinions to regurgitate. Furthermore, the sorts of posts you've made in this thread are exactly the kind of pointless SP-bashing Punkncat's sick of - if you want to make a point, try doing it by stating examples and saying why we shouldn't let SP get away with this stuff. Read Punkncat's original post again, and we'll see if in 40 years you've managed to grasp the concept of irony.

[aqua_scummm]

Over shooting will get you thrown off any respectable field regardless of the other teams...errr.... strategy...

Every field I have played at has the same rule, if they're not calling themselves out, don't wait for a ref, that's how you get eliminated. Keep shooting at them.

Within reason. if a kid's unconscious with his mask off, unresponsive, and not calling himself out, most places would want you to stop...

But if they're playing like they're still in, keep shooting them until they are called out by themselves or a ref

[Ninjeff]

Yea Bound for Glory, Punkncat is a good guy. A stand up dude, and a well respected member of this AO community, What he is saying, is that he is sick of reading about it (sp vs whoever) all the time. More over, he is sick of hearing about it in a non-respectful and non-intelligent conversation. He, by no means, is a SP fan boy. You would do well to choose your words more carefully.

[phatty123]

When will this thread die? Well before it does I think its time for me to beat a dead horse. I would say 90% of the markers I see that are be tinkered with to get fine tuned are Shockers and Ions. I am not a fan of stuff that has to be repaired just to go play. I have owned mags off and on for about 7-8 years. I am a big fan of the design and the company. AGD has its issue too. I almost had a brain aneurysm trying to get my level 10 working properly. Every one gave me great advice, but it tooks months took get it right. It actually left me down at the field a few times just chuffing away and refusing to fire with the smallest spring and biggest non leaking carrier. So every company has its issues. Thays just my personal view. Most people have no trouble with the level 10, but some do. So I have had my reliable old mag leave me hanging with the shocker and ion guys.

I can't speak for SP's currect quality control, but my 2002 SP vision impulse just rips. It doesn't break paint and it always works. I put my retro warped minimag in the backup marker bag in favor of this Smart Parts marker. I have to say I have had longer more enjoyable days with it. It shoots the crappiest paint with ease where the mag even being force fed with the level ten would just be better used as a margarita blender. I actually ended up trading my mag for an angel. Now I don't own any AGD markers. They are still my favorite, but I am on a budget and I like to play paintball. The SP marker will shoot RPS Flash crap paint (29.99 a case) and the mag won't what would you do? I go to the field to play.

-barry

If there are any spelling errors forgive me. Its late and I am really sunburned.

[mostpeople]

Does anybody have that picture of the poster who was making art out of an ion frame by bashing it up? I would like to get that pictar :)

[going_home]

Does anybody have that picture of the poster who was making art out of an ion frame by bashing it up? I would like to get that pictar :)

Talk about bringing one back from the dead !

I believe that would be Dan at Triggernomics wouldnt it ?
Isnt his nickname maghog ?

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=229534&highlight=maghog

[punkncat]

Reading back over this....I would just like to thank those members that in spite of having a differing opinion on the subject, defended me anyway.

One of the things that makes AO such a good place.

[druid]

yeah, wow........May of 08. mostpeople gets the award.......lol........



I've said it before and I'll say it again....

Other companies are as guilty as SP for poor business ethics or practices but people seem to like to ignore THEIR misdeeds.....

Halo/Empire/DXS/NPS/Ntl Paintball supply, Virtue......pick any large company, they've all done it to one extent or another. I challenge anyone to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there are more than a handful of mega-companies that DON'T engage in some kind of shenanigans.

Need a different perspective?
Anyone using MS/Windows is as guilty of pandering to the same "Elitist" money-mongering companies they claim SP to be.

[Reiner]

I've said it before and I'll say it again....

Other companies are as guilty as SP for poor business ethics or practices but people seem to like to ignore THEIR misdeeds.....

Halo/Empire/DXS/NPS/Ntl Paintball supply, Virtue......pick any large company, they've all done it to one extent or another. I challenge anyone to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there are more than a handful of mega-companies that DON'T engage in some kind of shenanigans.

Need a different perspective?
Anyone using MS/Windows is as guilty of pandering to the same "Elitist" money-mongering companies they claim SP to be.

The paintball industry is fairly big business now. It's no longer comprised of a few machinists and hobbyists turned business people. In any large industry, businesses engage in questionable ethical behaviour to achieve an advantage to further their bottom line. To think otherwise would be naive. As consumers, we have choices of where to spend our money. If consumers choose how to spend their money based on ethical behaviour, they have every right to do so. The beauty of free enterprise.

Unfortunately, when industries grow, the small companies that started up and were run by the enthusiasts, quite often lose out in the long run. That's the case in virtually every new industry that has any kind of substantial growth. Paintball is no different.

[DevilMan]

The paintball industry is fairly big business now. It's no longer comprised of a few machinists and hobbyists turned business people. In any large industry, businesses engage in questionable ethical behaviour to achieve an advantage to further their bottom line. To think otherwise would be naive. As consumers, we have choices of where to spend our money. If consumers choose how to spend their money based on ethical behaviour, they have every right to do so. The beauty of free enterprise.

Unfortunately, when industries grow, the small companies that started up and were run by the enthusiasts, quite often lose out in the long run. That's the case in virtually every new industry that has any kind of substantial growth. Paintball is no different.

That is true. BUT when a company grows and uses that income and depth of pocket as well as not just unethical but I feel illegal methods to corner the market then that's what the SP ruckus was about. From my understanding and there are far more here that know more of the details than I do. SP was prone to pushing things through the patent office that had been done in the PB biz for some years and that they even got from someone else years before. BUT it had not been patented because the folks doing it were leaving it open source for others to use and build on. They got the papers and then told everyone else to stop or they'd be sued. The others not having the bank to fight the legal battle had no choice but to close shop. The patent apps that SP submitted failed to list any previous information, prior knowledge I think it's called, about the things that were already being done in the PB world. The USPTO not knowing any better as there isn't a lot of old USPTO personnel playing paintball shoved the patent through unchallenged, unresearched, unknowingly giving SP the legal "leg to stand on" when in reality they didn't. BUT by the time word got out on what was going on, the damage had been done and the businesses closed. Investments of untold amounts by a group of 4 or 5 folks churning out custom deals and doing R&D on a personal level don't just get tossed out the window overnight without someone feeling the sting. Additionally things such as using air to shoot a paintball and such were such idiotic patents that if you really were able to have the time and where with all to sit down and read each and every one of them things like "Using a spring to reset the trigger" "using an airline running through the grip frame" things like that... Had already not only been done on a small scale but a large one as well. But because the companies doing it either didn't feel like patenting it, have the money to patent it, or didn't feel threatened enough to worry about losing their bizness by someone suing them for doing something that someone else had already done before them and they just tweaked it, they did their thing. SP took that opportunity and got the USPTO to sign off on the papers and then shut the companies down to knock the bizness out of cutting in to their profit margin.

Or at least this is the way I am to understand it.

Bizness is Bizness and it really don't take a person with a masters in global economics to understand that. I think a kid trying to buy a gumball can grasp the concept easily enough. But shady and illegal and unethical ways to deal with competition is no different than being a bully in school. You don't have the muscle because you've not hit puberty yet. So you'd rather give the nickel away than get a shiner. Or you'd rather fight and then you get a shiner and still lose the nickel and the dollar as well.

YMMV,

DM

[druid]

1. But because the companies doing it either didn't feel like patenting it, have the money to patent it, or didn't feel threatened enough to worry about losing their bizness by someone suing them for doing something that someone else had already done before them and they just tweaked it, they did their thing. SP took that opportunity and got the USPTO to sign off on the papers and then shut the companies down to knock the bizness out of cutting in to their profit margin.

Or at least this is the way I am to understand it.

2. Bizness is Bizness and it really don't take a person with a masters in global economics to understand that. I think a kid trying to buy a gumball can grasp the concept easily enough. But shady and illegal and unethical ways to deal with competition is no different than being a bully in school. You don't have the muscle because you've not hit puberty yet. So you'd rather give the nickel away than get a shiner. Or you'd rather fight and then you get a shiner and still lose the nickel and the dollar as well.

YMMV,

DM

1. You answered yourself with my own answer from other forums. I think I've even said it here.......that Tom Kay dropped the ball by NOT patent protecting it. The patent doesn't have o limit the design to the producer, the patent can be marked as "open for free use" but stll is protected to the patent holder.

And if it be the case that someone deigns something for "open use" then they have nothing to complain about...except that someone else is taking credit for their work. Well, they can't do that if the true originator holds that patent, right? It doesn't say anything about HAVING to enforce the patent Rights, only that they are entitled to it.

2. So long as my answer #1 exists, so will your response #2. Business IS business and companies will do what they can to reap the most profit. If you create something and don't protect the design, it's your own fault if you "lose" it. Sure it's unethical but no one in today's world cares about that anymore...except Automag Owners on an AutoMag forum (or Mag owners on ANY forum for that matter).

I work as an Officer in a prison filled with the most unethical and illegal activists you can imagine. Prison doesn't stop them, evidenced by the recidivism rate or the fact that we keep getting "new ones" that think they've gotten one "over" on the system - and got caught anyway. "Professional athletes" juice to get an edge - unethical, illegal. Congressmen hiring hookers - unethical and illegal. County Executives raising taxes for ____, but spend it on ____ instead - unethical (might not be illegal).

So when in comparison to all other things immoral, unethical or illegal that's not paintball, yet everyone just loves.......SP is really no different and should be revered in the same manner.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not telling anyone to love SP. The other side of the coin is to put the blame where it really belongs. In this case, Tom and AKA. If he didn't want the Gardners to take his designs......if AKA didn't want them taking their designs and shutting them down........THEY SHOULD HAVE PROACTIVELY PROTECTED THEIR INTERESTS. They didn't and right or wrong, SP got the patents for them.

If you are walking down the street and drop $100 bill, I'm half a block behind you and pick it up. After I've gone, you go back to look for it.

Whose fault is it that you are out the $100 and now I'm + that money?

Is it theft? I didn't take it off your body, or did I demand it from you under threat or force.

Was it mine to begin with? No.

Who's right and who's wrong?