Ya know, I am about "over it".....

[druid]

Well, isn't it the same mentality as those that justify wiping? Or even semantics surrounding it? "well...if he wipes, then I have to......" or "I only do it when _insert moronic justification here_.....

You know, everyone gets down on SP because they took "tradition" and marketed it.

Yet those same people who bash SP for it, do the same thing every time they cheat on the field. So much for traditions.....

I won't profess to know what happened between Tom and SP and really...I don't care. That's something between them and affects me very little.

I know what I like and I know what I hate. I play for the enjoyment of playing and with products that work well for me and that includes AGD and SP products.

SP haters/Tom K sympathizers and SP defenders/AGD emaciators need to stop worrying about 10 year old petty disputes that don't even pertain to them. Most of the people *****ing weren't even out of diapers when it was all going on. They need to shut up and just go play the game.....

[/thread]

[Steelrat]

Didn't read the whole threat, all I have to say is...

Screw Smart Parts.

That is all.

[warbeak2099]

Honestly you really can't blame SP for that. Maybe the Gardners are sleaze, but in a business since, they did what any smart for profit company would do. They found a loop-hole and exploited it for their gain. This kind of stuff happens all the time, but for some reason the paintball community can't accept it. I have a theory why; paintball was built around honor in it's beginnings. Guys like Tom Kaye, Bud Orr, etc., made gentlemen agreements such as the 13 bps. When the industry exploded and people relized that millions could be made, this left the industry with two groups: Dwindling old school guys like Tom Kaye and business savvy guys like the Gardners. I think Tom Kaye sense of honor hurt AGD more than SP did. In the world of big business you best leave honor at the door.
It worked well for the Gardners.

I can and I will hold someone ethically responsible for their actions. If you think ethics don't belong in the business world, I question your understanding of business.

Yes it is annoying when those that don't understand the real issue bash SP. But it's also annoying when people think the Gardners are just smart for doing what they've done. Fraudulent and deceitful is not smart, it's unethical. They are merely opportunists and thieves, not savvy businessmen who can successfully create and market a product.

Anyone who honestly thinks the Gardners are just a great example of running an efficient business needs to gain a better understanding of good business. Ethics and honor certainly do have a part in running a company. Business ethics is an incredibly important and heavily discussed topic in the academic and real world. So if you think the Gardner brothers are simply good business men, you need to check back into the real world because you've been in imagination land far too long.

[wimag]

There IS a difference there. AGD was NEVER given a C&D letter. Perhaps the writing was on the wall, but given the sales projections and not to attempt to quote Tom directly, but he stopped simply to avoid the issue altogether on a product that was not selling enough to make the whole thing worthwhile.
I think the niche that was stuck to has worked out pretty well to insure a fairly stable if small portion of the market for some time to come.

AKA had options available to them that many companies chose and have benefited from it. Dye (for one) isn't hurting from paying royalties and working with SP. Standing on a principal sure didn't keep the doors open any longer did it? Nor did legions of rabid AKA supporters help bear any of the legal costs, or fight the good fight to help them with those principals either. A good company is gone simply because they refused to play ball. Was it the "right" thing to do? Eh, well I am not going to argue the ethics of it. But they are no longer in business, or at least not as they were.

ICD is a company I simply do not know what they did. I thought they had signed an agreement with SP and thus their continued production. Didn't they just waste away from lack of intrest?
I would think that the POS Freestyle didn't help them a bit.....just my opinion of it...

And as you know they went after the smaller manufacturers first. AKA. ICD, AGD.
AGD bailed before the inevitable. C&D or not.
Wow POS freeestyle ?! I liked mine even though I am selling it. Never gave me a bit of trouble. I guess i would have had to buy an Ego to truely understand the quality of sending a great marker in for service.
If you didnt have one personally then you know nothing.

[LK-13]

I for one do not support the Gardeners.
I do not put my money into their pockets.
I have stooped to buying an adjustable Maxflow Reg. equipped HPA bottle,
second hand, so that no money transfers from me to the Gardeners directly.

I wish other companies were still producing adjustable HPA regulators,
but most have gone to pre-set reg.s;
and for the most part people that have adjustable reg.s seem
to be holding on to the gold they know they have.

still,
I do not bash,
I state facts if anyone cares to read them.
I make the choice for me alone.

and as you say, my WALLET is making my will be known.

is this fan boy zealotry?
NO.

this is a consumer exercising their right of choice.
make of that what you may.

[kenndogg]

I can and I will hold someone ethically responsible for their actions. If you think ethics don't belong in the business world, I question your understanding of business.

Yes it is annoying when those that don't understand the real issue bash SP. But it's also annoying when people think the Gardners are just smart for doing what they've done. Fraudulent and deceitful is not smart, it's unethical. They are merely opportunists and thieves, not savvy businessmen who can successfully create and market a product.

Anyone who honestly thinks the Gardners are just a great example of running an efficient business needs to gain a better understanding of good business. Ethics and honor certainly do have a part in running a company. Business ethics is an incredibly important and heavily discussed topic in the academic and real world. So if you think the Gardner brothers are simply good business men, you need to check back into the real world because you've been in imagination land far too long.

but do you think Joe Paintballer knows or even care? Personally I don't and I own both AGD and SP products and both perform well for me. Most paintballers I talk to at the field don't know that forums like this even exist much less know about SP's dealing and could care less.
If SP somehow worms its way to the top of the food chain controls the industry, well good for them. Whatever, I really don't care. I'll still will be playing b/c at the end of the day it's about enjoying the game of paintball. Doesn't really matter what I have in my hand, be it AGD, SP, DYE, etc.

[Spencer]

I dislike smart parts business practices,
I love their shocker
But hate what they did, I like AKA and AGD....

[punkncat]

I guess i would have had to buy an Ego to truely understand the quality of sending a great marker in for service.

Lol, dang!!! That was pretty good. I never actually sent mine in for service, Planet took care of everything for me though. Pretty nice of them...but most certainly point taken.

And as I said just my opinion of the freestyle. Apparently quite a few others as well. Maybe a regional thing, dunno.

[custar]

First, you know posting a thread like you did will accomplish exactly the opposite of what you said you desire, don't you?

custar

[Beemer]

Well you were ok with your post punk til I got towards the end. You need to go edit it.
If I have to explain, will you understand? I can go bold out the part I mean if you dont get it.

This thread will get locked or removed WAY before his does as he did not lay ANY SMACK down on another member of this forum. He WILL get the same RESPECT as YOU. As a matter of fact you just came right out and flamed him. Go fix it QUICK. I feel my pressure rising. There seems to me to be much double talk in your first post. Did you FORGET you were posting on AO.

Ahh gee sorry you dont like the bashing. Get over it. Its called Karma. What goes around comes around.

Maghogs thread made me laugh. Your thread with the smack is pissing me off. You are FREE to post your say WITH OUT atacking another member.

[AGD]

Just to make things clear in the midst of all this. We WERE sent a letter by SP "inviting" us to license their technology. This is the precursor to the C&D but legally marks the date you were notified in writing of infringement. If it goes to court, and you loose, you have to pay royalties from that date forward.

No matter what your position is, the paintball community votes with their dollars. Since SP is one of the most successful pb compainies, you must like what they have to say and offer. There is some kind of disconect between what is heard on the net and the success of SP. If I understood that I could make millions in this business.

What is indisputable is that there are fewer products to choose from today than 5 years ago. If your good with that, which many seem to think is ok, then SP bashing would sound pointless. If you had a dream and a goal, which we had in the early nineties, then its important to support the people who will bring those dreams and goals to reality. The good people made paintball happen for all of YOU, now you take it for granted.

I am old school, perhaps out of touch, dead and dying but I remember the dream and the people that sacrificed to make it come true. I am just glad I was part of it back when it meant something because there are no Bud Orr's, Debbie Dion's, Jim Lively's or Ross Alexander's to hang out with today.

AGD

[sandfreestyle]

Thank you Tom for all your hard work so the rest of us can play a game we love with the guns we love.

[mostpeople]

Tom I am going to ask you a point-blank question so we can get it on record. If you have stated it before please let me know and link me if you can - I am new to the boards so I dont have the memory of such threads if they exist.

What is the reason the X-mag and E-mag were discontinued? Money? Profit Margin? Smart Parts/Patents?

It is talked about quite frequently that the SP letter stopped the electronic automag production so I want to hear it from the source if possible. Thanks.

[teufelhunden]

I'm with Punk. You all in your daily lives give money to companies that do and have done the same thing. Why it's different with Smart Parts is beyond me. You can cry and complain about it all you want, but they're doing something right -- they're one of the few companies that will remain in the "end," most likely.

@AGD: Less guns available (perhaps, I'm not sure how much that is or isn't true but I'll accept it for now), but I bet Smart Parts has played a small role in that. The real problem behind that is because a few years ago, EVERYBODY in paintball was busting butt to get the game on TV because that would lead to explosive popularity which would get the dollars into the industry hand over foot. Well, you don't hear a lot of people trying to get PB on TV anymore. Nobody is circulating the online petitions to ESPN on the subject anymore. Paintball made it to TV and failed big time and did not bring the massive influx of new dollars that everybody had expected. So the growth trend that everybody expect has instead remained stagnant, and if my memory serves me correctly, dollars spent on PB since 05 has been in decline. Less money in the industry = less players = less guns. Not so much SP.

Oh, and SP never forced anybody out. You could play by their rules (which have yet to be rescinded) or not -- a lot of people decided they didn't want to pay licensing, which was a poor business move, which is the problem for most of the paintball types. Fine on the field and fine with some tools, but couldn't tell you an income statement from a balance sheet from a marketing proposal from a good business idea. Unless the SP royalty was absurd (like, a few hundred/unit absurd), it would have made more sense to stay in the game -- with some companies dropping and similar demand for new electros, AGD/whomever could've made up from the loss due to the higher price because of fewer models available, funneling customers to those who remain.

But hey, I'm sure all the martyrs sleep better at night knowing they aren't paying money to those evil people actually making money from the martyrs' game.

[mostpeople]

But hey, I'm sure all the martyrs sleep better at night knowing they aren't paying money to those evil people actually making money from the martyrs' game.

I do

I sleep better knowing I give 0 dollars to smart parts for F'ing over paintball. Now, I will agree with you that it wasn't 100% them, but their actions, and then blatantly ripping off AGD technology afterwards, well that doesn't jive with me.

The fact that you're standing behind them is weird though, I mean you must see what they have done?