Ya know, I am about "over it".....

[cyberave68]

Too bad we dont have sigs here anymore. This is would what i would have....

I would trade 10 Smart Parts for one AGD, a hundred Gardners for one Tom Kaye.

[warbeak2099]

Huh?

I certainly hope you do not think that applies to me.....not sure what it applies to. I am not saying that ANYONE should support SP OR any of their partners.

What are you saying then? Informed people who intelligently choose not to support SP and to intelligently debate against SP are certainly not being out of control or unreasonable. Are you merely arguing against bandwagon haters?

The fact is, there are many reasons why people should be angry with SP. Saying that we should all forget it, it's just good business, is idiotic and ignorant of the facts.

[ThePixelGuru]

As long as it's legal I could care less. If SP wants to take over the industy using these tactics than good for them. People act like SP is the only company who stole/borrowed ideas. Sorry but that is nothing new in paintball. It's a copy cat industry, if something sells you can bet there a few companies lining up their versions.

Aha, the "if it's legal it's ethical" argument, I've come across this one before. Slavery was legal, and women couldn't vote - if everything legal was just fine, then why did these change? Hell, why did we ever make new laws in the first place?

I really wonder about this whole ethics thing eveyone is standing on. I mean, do y'all go our of your way to investigate EVERY product from every company to make sure they are planting trees and petting kittens, leaving the whole world with a fuzzy feeling? Or is it just paintball companies that you expected were going to always leave everything free and for the good of paintball? In spite of corporate involvement and reducing market share?
Is there ANY other business model that follows this ideal? Not being smart, I am serious. What other industry that brings in millions of dollars a year offers all their technology for free to anyone? No licensing, free to use and build upon any idea that anyone designed?
Who in todays world is nieve enough to develop a product and not protect themselves and their investment in R & D by using a patent or copyright?

I try my best to be an informed consumer whether I buy paintball gear or a cup of coffee - yes, I buy fair trade coffee whenever I can, but no, I don't spend hours researching a company before buying that cup.

As for the second part, the difference between, say, Microsoft selling licenses to use Windows and Smart Parts selling licenses to make electronic markers is that Microsoft actually invented and designed Windows.

There is no problem, but unless you stick exclusively with mom-and-pop stores whose owners you know intimately, you will not be able to know with certainty about any skeletons in the closets. So if you're going to vet companies A, B, and C before using their products, why not D, E, and F?

I did say "when possible." There are times when I hit Wal-Mart because I've got a headache and don't know when the next pharmacy is coming up, or when I buy Smart Parts wood grips because there aren't others available. But saying that I should just go ahead and support soulless, thieving corporations just because I don't know everything about every other business is just silly. There are four burners on your stove and you have to touch one of them: if one's hot, one's cold, and you don't know about the other two, do you burn your hand on the hot one because you don't know about the last two?



Bottom line here is that, yes, bandwagon SP haters are annoying, but there are plenty of equally annoying bandwagon SP lovers, too. There are uninformed people everywhere spewing their opinions where they don't belong, but please don't get them confused with those of us who actually have a reason to dislike SP (et al).

[RogueFactor]

As for the second part, the difference between, say, Microsoft selling licenses to use Windows and Smart Parts selling licenses to make electronic markers is that Microsoft actually invented and designed Windows.

While thats the prevailing belief, its not factual. Microsoft didnt 'invent' Windows per se, it was an improvement upon MS-DOS, which was an improvement upon PC-DOS, which was an improvement upon 86-DOS which was created/invented by Seattle Computer Products. So Microsoft really just bought the IP, they didnt invent it. I guess it could be argued that they have since improved upon it.

There are more similarities between Microsoft & Smart Parts than with Starbucks.

Rather than paraphrase the history, Ive bolded the pertinent parts

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS

In late 1980, IBM was developing what would become the original IBM Personal Computer. CP/M was by far the most popular operating system in use at the time, and IBM felt it needed CP/M in order to compete. IBM's representatives visited Digital Research and discussed licensing with DRI's licensing representative, Dorothy McEwen Kildall, who hesitated to sign IBM's non-disclosure agreement. Although the NDA was later accepted, DRI would not accept IBM's proposal of $250,000 in exchange for as many copies as IBM could sell, insisting on the usual royalty-based plan.[1] In later discussions between IBM and Bill Gates, Gates mentioned the existence of 86-DOS and IBM representative Jack Sams told him to get a license for it.
Creation of PC-DOS

Microsoft purchased a nonexclusive license for 86-DOS from Seattle Computer Products in December 1980 for $25,000. In May 1981, it hired Tim Paterson to port the system to the IBM-PC, which used the slower and less expensive Intel 8088 processor and had its own specific family of peripherals. IBM watched the developments daily, submitted over 300 change requests before accepting the product and wrote the user manual for it.

In July 1981, a month before the PC's release, Microsoft purchased all rights to 86-DOS from SCP for $50,000. It met IBM's main criteria: it looked like CP/M, and it was easy to adapt existing 8-bit CP/M programs to run under it, notably thanks to the TRANS command which would translate source files from 8080 to 8086 machine instructions. Microsoft licensed 86-DOS to IBM, and it became PC-DOS 1.0. This license also permitted Microsoft to sell DOS to other companies, which it did. The deal was spectacularly successful, and SCP later claimed in court that Microsoft had concealed its relationship with IBM in order to purchase the operating system cheaply. SCP ultimately received a 1 million dollar settlement payment.

When DRI founder Gary Kildall examined PC-DOS and found that it duplicated CP/M's programming interface, he wanted to sue IBM, which at the time claimed that PC-DOS was its own product. However, Digital Research's attorney did not believe that the relevant law was clear enough to sue (he now believes that later legal developments would have made this easier). Nonetheless, Kildall confronted IBM and persuaded them to offer CP/M-86 with the PC in exchange for a release of liability.

Controversy has continued to surround the similarity between the two systems.

Its often that most people dont know all the facts. They base much of their opinions on what they hear from others they agree with because they either dont care to know all the facts or its what they want to believe. This frequently happens in the business world, including paintball forums

[Spider-TW]

And no, I don't drink Starbucks, they've been over roasting their coffee for years.

For sure. I also doubt that they will keep a better cup of coffee off the market.

Also, mostpeople, Tom mentioned royalties in a thread about a month back. From that, I would say, yes, sp royalties have something to do with the lack of emags and xmags on the market.

I remember when sp mostly made barrels. I think some people at sp have good ideas sometimes. But I usually don't find the result equal to the hype. As long as they run hype, they are a target for bashing.

I think you are looking at the disconnect between the internet opinion of sp and their sales...internet literacy. For the number of people that have it, few seem to read boring stuff like forums where information is present. It seems pretty common to have a paintball team of 30 to 40 players and only half will communicate via email or forum and even fewer will look beyond the first few posts.

Old school, new school, haters, bashers, and sp fans, if you have read this far, you are a minority.

[mostpeople]

For sure. I also doubt that they will keep a better cup of coffee off the market.

Also, mostpeople, Tom mentioned royalties in a thread about a month back. From that, I would say, yes, sp royalties have something to do with the lack of emags and xmags on the market.

I remember when sp mostly made barrels. I think some people at sp have good ideas sometimes. But I usually don't find the result equal to the hype. As long as they run hype, they are a target for bashing.

I think you are looking at the disconnect between the internet opinion of sp and their sales...internet literacy. For the number of people that have it, few seem to read boring stuff like forums where information is present. It seems pretty common to have a paintball team of 30 to 40 players and only half will communicate via email or forum and even fewer will look beyond the first few posts.

Old school, new school, haters, bashers, and sp fans, if you have read this far, you are a minority.

thanks!

Further proof that SP helped to end the X-mag? Are you ok with that punkncat?

[Ninjeff]

Too bad we dont have sigs here anymore. This is would what i would have....

[Ninjeff]

It's fascinating (get firefox) that you've missed the reason for the argument; namely, most people don't have any idea why they hate SP, but they just do because that's what others do.

I tend to think you don't have any background or education in business ethics as it's never as cut and dry as you think. While you may see it as unethical, is it unethical from the POV of someone working for SP, who was hired because the firm was growing? Etc.

I have firefox. It was late when i posted that, so im sorry if my slightly "off" spelling hurt your eyes. Forgive me for trying to crank out a cohesive post just minutes before my eyes were sealed shut for the night. I cared little for "spelling b" points and more for the thoughts rolling around in my tired head.

Still, to address the part of post that deals with ethics, it was my understanding that SP got the electro patent through a "loop hole" in patent law. They way i was explained it, the took something they did NOT invent, noticed it wasnt patented, and amended a previous and unrelated patent of there own to make an electro patent "retro-active" allowing them to by-pass most marketed examples of "prior art" (the guns that were all selling on the market at that time) therefore allowing SP to lay claim to license fees for something they didnt come up with.

Now, maybe ive miss-read when doing research on the subject, but if indeed, they were granted a patent by way of attaching it to another, older patent allowing them to run people out of the business of paintball....well....i find that disgusting and deplorable. Do i have an education in business ethics? No, sorry i do not. Im but a simple musician. Still, i know i dont like SP because i dont like how they run their business. I can avoid them, so i do. To date, i have NOT purchased a SINGLE marker made by either SP, or a company that gives SP money to license their "patented" electro-technology, (i say that as we still dont know what the status is w/ Kingman and Tippmann)
I have owned:
Tippmann Carbine, 98, A5, Kingman Spyder, AGD: Classic, Classic, E-Mag, ULE Mag, and now a Pneumag, a Tacamo t68orsomething that i won and sold, and two WGP 04 Prostocks. Mech, of course, and an Ariakon ACP.


At this stage of the game, what is done is done as far as SP running people out of the electro corner of the market. Its been years since the initial lawsuits and C&D letters. Part of me WANTS to think that SP has learned they arent as sly as they would think and have learned from previous battles. The problem is that i read threads like the SP one on PbN where they parade a tech out, who, though he seems like a good guy, makes crazy un-substantiated claims like "the Shocker 4x4 shot farther that gun-x because of awesome SP tech that doesnt jive with physics. I dont really like thier ads and slogans either. PWN this, win that......meh, just isnt my gig.I dont like the idea of making kids think its ok to PWN noobs.
Still, i dont run around screaming my dis-like of SP from the hill tops. The only reason i spoke up in THIS thread is because i found it FASCINATING that some people justify shady practices with the idea that "every one else is doing it...."

[djeto]

Bananas!!!

So...what brand of bananas does everyone buy?

Certainly not those blood soaked Chiquita bananas.

Shady business, insert "or shady anything", is inherent in human nature.

Yes the ideal should be "Do as I do.," and not "Do as I say, and not as I do."

But it is always comforting to know there are still people always willing to stand for the good fight, be it the "right" or "wrong" side of the line.

[ThePixelGuru]

While thats the prevailing belief, its not factual. Microsoft didnt 'invent' Windows per se, it was an improvement upon MS-DOS, which was an improvement upon PC-DOS, which was an improvement upon 86-DOS which was created/invented by Seattle Computer Products. So Microsoft really just bought the IP, they didnt invent it. I guess it could be argued that they have since improved upon it.

There are more similarities between Microsoft & Smart Parts than with Starbucks.

Rather than paraphrase the history, Ive bolded the pertinent parts

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS



Its often that most people dont know all the facts. They base much of their opinions on what they hear from others they agree with because they either dont care to know all the facts or its what they want to believe. This frequently happens in the business world, including paintball forums

I thought someone might bring this up, should have figured it would be you. It'd be a real stretch to say that going from DOS to Vista wasn't anything that MS deserves any money for. I was mostly referring to the GUI, and how Microsoft did actually develop and program Windows (if I'm correct, Windows XP and later aren't even truly DOS-based, but rather emulate a DOS prompt). Granted, they ripped off Apple, and Apple ripped off Xerox, but all those companies sure as hell put more effort into making a GUI than SP did in patenting a microswitch in paintball. Any idiot can slap a microswitch behind a trigger, but I'd like to see you take DOS and turn it into Vista.

I know it's not a perfect analogy, but it's what fit best (and the direction the conversation was already taking) so I went with it. I'm an Apple guy, and I know full well the shady stuff MS has done. Still, thanks for assuming once more that I don't know my facts. If it helps, you can replace "Windows" with "OS X" and "MS" with "Apple." My point still stands, because it was about paintball and not Silicon Valley. In fact, we're actually on the same side of the SP argument here; my guess is that you just want to nitpick because you're butthurt from our past interactions.

[Ninjeff]

I thought someone might bring this up, should have figured it would be you. It'd be a real stretch to say that going from DOS to Vista wasn't anything that MS deserves any money for. I was mostly referring to the GUI, and how Microsoft did actually develop and program Windows (if I'm correct, Windows XP and later aren't even truly DOS-based, but rather emulate a DOS prompt). Granted, they ripped off Apple, and Apple ripped off Xerox, but all those companies sure as hell put more effort into making a GUI than SP did in patenting a microswitch in paintball. Any idiot can slap a microswitch behind a trigger, but I'd like to see you take DOS and turn it into Vista.

I know it's not a perfect analogy, but it's what fit best (and the direction the conversation was already taking) so I went with it. I'm an Apple guy, and I know full well the shady stuff MS has done. Still, thanks for assuming once more that I don't know my facts. If it helps, you can replace "Windows" with "OS X" and "MS" with "Apple." My point still stands, because it was about paintball and not Silicon Valley. In fact, we're actually on the same side of the SP argument here; my guess is that you just want to nitpick because you're butthurt from our past interactions.

im excited because i feel like this will be an educational argument between Pixel and Rogue.

Goody goody something interesting to read tonight!

[RogueFactor]

I thought someone might bring this up, should have figured it would be you. It'd be a real stretch to say that going from DOS to Vista wasn't anything that MS deserves any money for. I was mostly referring to the GUI, and how Microsoft did actually develop and program Windows (if I'm correct, Windows XP and later aren't even truly DOS-based, but rather emulate a DOS prompt). Granted, they ripped off Apple, and Apple ripped off Xerox, but all those companies sure as hell put more effort into making a GUI than SP did in patenting a microswitch in paintball. Any idiot can slap a microswitch behind a trigger, but I'd like to see you take DOS and turn it into Vista.

I know it's not a perfect analogy, but it's what fit best (and the direction the conversation was already taking) so I went with it. I'm an Apple guy, and I know full well the shady stuff MS has done. Still, thanks for assuming once more that I don't know my facts. If it helps, you can replace "Windows" with "OS X" and "MS" with "Apple." My point still stands, because it was about paintball and not Silicon Valley. In fact, we're actually on the same side of the SP argument here; my guess is that you just want to nitpick because you're butthurt from our past interactions.

You said Microsoft invented and designed Windows, and that was the difference between MS & SP. When in fact, they purchased the IP that was developed into Windows.

By your logic, it would be a real stretch to say that going from the PVI Shocker to the current Shocker wasnt anything that SP doesnt deserve money for. It was further developed by SP. So there is no need to nitpick, your analogy does not fit best.

Smart Parts didnt patent or invent the original Shocker.Pneuventures Inc(PVI) did. MS didnt invent the original OS system that was paramount to their success. SCP did. You said there is a difference between Microsoft and SP. I make the opposite assertion...there is more similarities than differences.

LOL. Butthurt. That made my day knowing where it came from

[JesseB]

are you serious? There is no way that Smart Parts did anything to "Protect their interests" They did it to screw over the competition so they would be the only game in town. If they hadn't patented the damn electronic gun then their only competition wouldn't be from the UK and Australia and we would have better guns and equipment to show for it at reasonable prices because they would all be competing in a fair market.


Screw Smart Parts, the pos Ion, The recycled aluminum shocker, the crappy maxflow, and every other piece of junk they make. There is not one arguement that you can make for Smart Part's sake everything in their line is garbage but they effectively tied the hands of every other marker manufacturer because they are punks.


Keep Smart Parts lovers in their owners groups

[cyberave68]

are you serious? There is no way that Smart Parts did anything to "Protect their interests" They did it to screw over the competition so they would be the only game in town. If they hadn't patented the damn electronic gun then their only competition wouldn't be from the UK and Australia and we would have better guns and equipment to show for it at reasonable prices because they would all be competing in a fair market.


Screw Smart Parts, the pos Ion, The recycled aluminum shocker, the crappy maxflow, and every other piece of junk they make. There is not one arguement that you can make for Smart Part's sake everything in their line is garbage but they effectively tied the hands of every other marker manufacturer because they are punks.


Keep Smart Parts lovers in their owners groups

Well said...!!!!

[TnDeathInc]

Well said...!!!!

agree!