Ya know, I am about "over it".....

[mostpeople]

Talk about bringing one back from the dead !

I believe that would be Dan at Triggernomics wouldnt it ?
Isnt his nickname maghog ?

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=229534&highlight=maghog

Bookmarked! thanks!

[DevilMan]

1. You answered yourself with my own answer from other forums. I think I've even said it here.......that Tom Kay dropped the ball by NOT patent protecting it. The patent doesn't have o limit the design to the producer, the patent can be marked as "open for free use" but stll is protected to the patent holder.

And if it be the case that someone deigns something for "open use" then they have nothing to complain about...except that someone else is taking credit for their work. Well, they can't do that if the true originator holds that patent, right? It doesn't say anything about HAVING to enforce the patent Rights, only that they are entitled to it.

2. So long as my answer #1 exists, so will your response #2. Business IS business and companies will do what they can to reap the most profit. If you create something and don't protect the design, it's your own fault if you "lose" it. Sure it's unethical but no one in today's world cares about that anymore...except Automag Owners on an AutoMag forum (or Mag owners on ANY forum for that matter).

I work as an Officer in a prison filled with the most unethical and illegal activists you can imagine. Prison doesn't stop them, evidenced by the recidivism rate or the fact that we keep getting "new ones" that think they've gotten one "over" on the system - and got caught anyway. "Professional athletes" juice to get an edge - unethical, illegal. Congressmen hiring hookers - unethical and illegal. County Executives raising taxes for ____, but spend it on ____ instead - unethical (might not be illegal).

So when in comparison to all other things immoral, unethical or illegal that's not paintball, yet everyone just loves.......SP is really no different and should be revered in the same manner.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not telling anyone to love SP. The other side of the coin is to put the blame where it really belongs. In this case, Tom and AKA. If he didn't want the Gardners to take his designs......if AKA didn't want them taking their designs and shutting them down........THEY SHOULD HAVE PROACTIVELY PROTECTED THEIR INTERESTS. They didn't and right or wrong, SP got the patents for them.

If you are walking down the street and drop $100 bill, I'm half a block behind you and pick it up. After I've gone, you go back to look for it.

Whose fault is it that you are out the $100 and now I'm + that money?

Is it theft? I didn't take it off your body, or did I demand it from you under threat or force.

Was it mine to begin with? No.

Who's right and who's wrong?

That is not the point of my post Druid. My point is that when something is put out as common knowledge and is being used by various people in different aspects of life Read that as not just PB. Then it is not mentioned a Prior Knowledge when a patent app goes in is that not fraud by ommission of facts?

I understand designing something, R&D'ing something and making and producing something that is specific and technical. I however do not see making a broad blanket patent such as "use of a microswitch in a PB marker" as being able to have a patent assigned to it. As that being the case you could say, that it's used as the trigger, or as the board programming, or as the feed neck. But it'd be like saying I want to patent the Bowie Knife. Or I want to patent a watch and it's internal workings. IF you do the watch then it's easy to say this gear is 1/8" and this is 3/16" inch and such as that. If someone comes along and swaps those gears around and moves them and changes their sizes then it's not patent infringement. If that watchmaker says "I want to patent the idea of wearing something on your wrist to tell the time" then do you think that should hold water?

Oh now lets see... How is it attached to the wrist? A band? or magnet maybe?

Yes I know I can go on tangents. The point of the matter is to apply the general overall happenings of the PB world and SP to the rest of the world and tell me if you think it'd make sense?

It'd be like me going now to the USPTO and saying... I'd like to patent the idea of using a mechanical device to soar through the air from one location to another. Does anyone have the patent on flying? Nope. So why can't I get it and sue all the plane makers for patent infringement? Don't get me wrong I don't blame SP 100% of the issue. I blame the lawyers which brought up the idea and helped enforce it and I blame the USPTO for not researching the info before they issued such things as well as issuing such a blanket patent.

And for what it's worth. I still shoot my mags and love em, but also have cockers and eteks and DM3's and Angels. I however hate AKA and Tippman guns. My feelings on this are far less PB related and more generally related as to how people should conduct themselves and their bizness and how they should handle their jobs.

DM

[DevilMan]

And if it be the case that someone deigns something for "open use" then they have nothing to complain about...except that someone else is taking credit for their work. Well, they can't do that if the true originator holds that patent, right? It doesn't say anything about HAVING to enforce the patent Rights, only that they are entitled to it.

See this is a matter of contention. It's designed as OPEN USE/SOURCE that means that when you submit your patent you have to list it as PRIOR KNOWLEDGE. Meaning that you are aware that there are things out there that use this information. Failing to do so is unethical IF NOT full on ILLEGAL. I've never submitted a patent so I don't know all of the rules, but I am pretty certain that you are supposed to submit any PK that you are aware of and if you think that you can be an up and coming producer of bread and pastries that you would know damn well that there is such a thing as white flour on the market.

DM

[DevilMan]

Oh and To answer you again so as not to make it seem like I'm avoiding something...

I drop the money, you find it it's yours.

You see me drop my wallet or see me drop the money technically it's still yours.

Does that not mean that it'd be nice of ya to hook me up and tell me I dropped it?

I and this is truth or I'm not sittin here.... Watched a girl on post drop a $20 that she was trying to get in her pocket walkin in front of me. I picked it up chased her down and told her she dropped this. She checked her pocket and thanked me and took the 20.

I have found $100 blowin down the street. Picked up up looked around no one there so I kept it. Yup.

DM

[DevilMan]

yeah, wow........May of 08. mostpeople gets the award.......lol........



I've said it before and I'll say it again....

Other companies are as guilty as SP for poor business ethics or practices but people seem to like to ignore THEIR misdeeds.....

Halo/Empire/DXS/NPS/Ntl Paintball supply, Virtue......pick any large company, they've all done it to one extent or another. I challenge anyone to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there are more than a handful of mega-companies that DON'T engage in some kind of shenanigans.

Need a different perspective?
Anyone using MS/Windows is as guilty of pandering to the same "Elitist" money-mongering companies they claim SP to be.

I didn't read this fully before. Are you aware of a program called Open Office?

It's a free ware proggy that does the same exact thing as MS Office.

MS wanted to try and shut them down saying they didn't have the right to write a program that would do the same stuff as MSO. They got told not only do they have the right but it's also their right to make it compatible with MSO files. It'd be like saying that ANGEL/WDP made the Angel threaded feednecks and that they can only be used on Angel markers. But now all kinds of people make ANGEL threaded feed necks right?

Angel can patent ANGEL but they can't patent thread pitch/length/size and say noone else can use it.

I can't patent a bar of soap and say that it can only be used to wash your hands.

In the end MS was told not only that the other company could but that they would also have to make sure that their software allowed OO software to access and use the files that MSO made such as the DOCX files and PPT files.

So you see. It is everywhere. And some do care because some care that no matter how crappy the world seems to be there are still a few taking breaths that are trying to change it for the better.

DM

[cockerpunk]

ill never be over it.

but at this point there is nothing we can do. the truth and the history is merely an academic pursuit. SP isn't going anywhere, and they still make garbage for the most part, so i still dislike them. but there isn't anything we can do about this kind of stuff at this point.

i still have a very low opinion of smart parts, and if people ask ill tell them that.

[snoopay700]

ill never be over it.

but at this point there is nothing we can do. the truth and the history is merely an academic pursuit. SP isn't going anywhere, and they still make garbage for the most part, so i still dislike them. but there isn't anything we can do about this kind of stuff at this point.

i still have a very low opinion of smart parts, and if people ask ill tell them that.

This is pretty much how i feel about it, and it's not limited to smart parts for saying their products aren't of the highest quality, tippmann bodies aren't of the highest quality metal and can't be mig welded due to the varying amounts of other metals in the alloy, this is also why they can't exactly be annoed, or at least this used to be the case they may machine the bodies now but i doubt it. My main beef with smart parts still remains that they made it so anyone that that produces an electronic marker has to pay them royalties, and i've always wanted to produce a marker since i realized that a lot of the markers out there could be a lot better. But as for just going out of my way to talk down about smart parts i stopped that shortly after i started because i realized it got me nowhere.

[DevilMan]

But as for just going out of my way to talk down about smart parts i stopped that shortly after i started because i realized it got me nowhere.

That's why I don't feel that I'm talking them down but exposing the information. I don't try to push my opinion on other people, but I have no problem with explaining to them what information I used to make my opinion. What they do with it is up to them.

Too often though sheeple just hear someone else's "THOUGHT" about something and take it as their own. So when that happens and it causes the scales to tip one way, it's often necessary to disseminate ALL the information out there so that some people who are FOR something can get off of one side and onto the other or stand aside altogether to let the scales balance back out.

I don't claim to know every detail of every email/meeting/phone call/letter/etc that went between SP and anyone else same as NO ONE knows every detail that went on between 2 people unless you were there and witnessed it first hand. That is why I put what I gleamed from the information that was passed around various places as well as what I researched up myself.

Oh well...

DM

[snoopay700]

That's why I don't feel that I'm talking them down but exposing the information. I don't try to push my opinion on other people, but I have no problem with explaining to them what information I used to make my opinion. What they do with it is up to them.

Too often though sheeple just hear someone else's "THOUGHT" about something and take it as their own. So when that happens and it causes the scales to tip one way, it's often necessary to disseminate ALL the information out there so that some people who are FOR something can get off of one side and onto the other or stand aside altogether to let the scales balance back out.

I don't claim to know every detail of every email/meeting/phone call/letter/etc that went between SP and anyone else same as NO ONE knows every detail that went on between 2 people unless you were there and witnessed it first hand. That is why I put what I gleamed from the information that was passed around various places as well as what I researched up myself.

Oh well...

DM

Well the bull that they do is one thing, i'll talk about that, but i mean just straight up smart part bashing and saying not to support them because they're destroying paintball with the whole patent fiasco, people either already had my opinion or simply didn't care about what they were doing.

[druid]

Ok, so let me ask this then......

If I go to the USPO and am awarded a patent on a bar of soap.......and even though that bar of soap already exists.....they still gave me that patent for it.

Who's fault is it then?

I'm not saying SP is vindicated but lets be realistic here...the USPO is supposed to research the item desiring the patent award.....right?

If they give a patent out even though it already exists, that's on them. SP simply reaps the benefit from their mistake.

Now I'm CERTAINLY not saying that SP deserves the "blanket" or "broad spectrum" exclusiveness of "micro switch to fire a paintball marker"...or others....but then again, if no one else patented the idea......and SP applied for it AND WAS GRANTED it.....who's really to blame? It's the Patent Office that declares it an original idea, worth exclusivity, right?

Everyone keeps giving SP the hairy eyeball for getting the patent on something.....but it's the USPO that issues it. If SP is undeserving the patent, then the application should be denied. Period.

[cockerpunk]

Ok, so let me ask this then......

If I go to the USPO and am awarded a patent on a bar of soap.......and even though that bar of soap already exists.....they still gave me that patent for it.

Who's fault is it then?

I'm not saying SP is vindicated but lets be realistic here...the USPO is supposed to research the item desiring the patent award.....right?

If they give a patent out even though it already exists, that's on them. SP simply reaps the benefit from their mistake.

Now I'm CERTAINLY not saying that SP deserves the "blanket" or "broad spectrum" exclusiveness of "micro switch to fire a paintball marker"...or others....but then again, if no one else patented the idea......and SP applied for it AND WAS GRANTED it.....who's really to blame? It's the Patent Office that declares it an original idea, worth exclusivity, right?

Everyone keeps giving SP the hairy eyeball for getting the patent on something.....but it's the USPO that issues it. If SP is undeserving the patent, then the application should be denied. Period.

well when you apply for a patent and the whole reason that getting a patent is so hard is because the USPO makes the applicant do that research. you have to research all the related technologies, and those patents all the way back until the original set of patents.

so this is what Smart Parts did when they applied for the expanded shocker patent (the one on all electronic guns), and the research showed alot of prior art, from the eidelmen patent to the US navy patent in the 1960s.

when this application was looked at by the USPO, it was denied.

so smart parts simply re-appiled, not citing those key prior patents.

basically, perjury.

and what do you know - the expanded shocker patent was granted!

its not the USPOs fault if the applicants simply lie.

[DevilMan]

Ok, so let me ask this then......

If I go to the USPO and am awarded a patent on a bar of soap.......and even though that bar of soap already exists.....they still gave me that patent for it.

If you go and say, I want a patent for a bar of soap as a general over all patent and you get given said patent in it's simplest form then I would say they are. HOWEVER. If you go and say, This is a new idea and I want to patent it then that is falsifying a federal document. I say federal because it is after all the USPTO.

Who's fault is it then?

I'm not saying SP is vindicated but lets be realistic here...the USPO is supposed to research the item desiring the patent award.....right?

NO. The person/company applying is supposed to. If I'm not mistaken there is a section that says, Prior Art or whatever applicable to or relating to this application or something to that effect.

If they give a patent out even though it already exists, that's on them. SP simply reaps the benefit from their mistake.

Now I'm CERTAINLY not saying that SP deserves the "blanket" or "broad spectrum" exclusiveness of "micro switch to fire a paintball marker"...or others....but then again, if no one else patented the idea......and SP applied for it AND WAS GRANTED it.....who's really to blame? It's the Patent Office that declares it an original idea, worth exclusivity, right?

Have I ever exclusively blamed SP??? Read my last few posts from beginning to end a few times and get back to me.

Everyone keeps giving SP the hairy eyeball for getting the patent on something.....but it's the USPO that issues it. If SP is undeserving the patent, then the application should be denied. Period.

Here I went ahead and found what I was trying to say... though I've not read the whole page yet...

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/utility/utility.htm#cross

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/utility/utility.htm#oath

For the full listing, just click BACK TO TOP or click here http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac...tility.htm#top

Does that shine a light on what you are asking?

DM

[snoopay700]

well when you apply for a patent and the whole reason that getting a patent is so hard is because the USPO makes the applicant do that research. you have to research all the related technologies, and those patents all the way back until the original set of patents.

so this is what Smart Parts did when they applied for the expanded shocker patent (the one on all electronic guns), and the research showed alot of prior art, from the eidelmen patent to the US navy patent in the 1960s.

when this application was looked at by the USPO, it was denied.

so smart parts simply re-appiled, not citing those key prior patents.

basically, perjury.

and what do you know - the expanded shocker patent was granted!

its not the USPOs fault if the applicants simply lie.

Exactly, the USPO gets too many patents to do all of the research themselves so you're supposed to do that research (or hire someone to do it).

Also do they only have the patent on microswitches? If so that would answer why the mini went with an HES instead, but i thought they paid royalties still.

[cockerpunk]

no the expanded shocker patent covers everything and anything and switches electrical current to trigger a paintball gun.

[snoopay700]

no the expanded shocker patent covers everything and anything and switches electrical current to trigger a paintball gun.

Hmm, guess they did it just to keep everything clean then with no wires, which doesn't seem like as good of a reason. Oh well they're still fun guns.