Smaller Balls are you ready?

[cockerpunk]

the issue really is can they compete with 68 cal?

if they are made heavier then the muzzle velocity can't be raised but they will likely have superior ballistic performance to 68 cal. but then the issue is how to make them heavier, add something to the shell or fill? idk ...

more then likely though i think they will be the same density as normal paintballs and thus be lighter. this means that even if you raise the muzzle velocity of the ball to give each the same kinetic energy, the smaller ball will still lose speed faster, and vortex shedding will have a larger effect on accuracy. the low mass means that everything effects it alot more.

that means that 50 cal will not have the range or accuracy of the 68 cal we all use.

so what then? a team using 68 cal might be paying more per shot, but they will be at a serious advantage compared to the 50 cal, much like how the first strike rounds might be super expensive but they make normal paintballs look pitiful. so in a tournament situation your going to want the extra performance of the 68 over the 50, and in woodsball you are really gonna want the extra performance of the 68 over the 50 again.

so that means you either need to make the tournament field smaller (again!) or make a whole division that only 50 cal is used in.

now the one place they do make sense is for rec ball and private groups. but the issue here is that to capture that market, fields will need to convert over 50 cal from there fleets of 98s, a5s, sp1/vibe .. to something that uses 50 cal. some fields (even the smaller ones) have 100 or more of those guns.

[GroovYChickeN 2.o]

Really what is all the fuss about guys. Just because they are going to start making 50 cal stuff doesn't mean they will stop making 68 cal. If this catches on it will take a number of years to filter down to every local field. Also, why cant both exist at the same time. It's pantball, if someone wants to shoot 50 cal at me instead of 68 cal I don't care. I will stick with 68 cal for now because that's what I have. If it moves in the direction of 50 cal and I see some nice pumps being made for it, yeah I'll make the jump. All in all, don't get your panties in a bunch, it's not that big of a deal.

[Miltonyz]

They will be cheaper because they will sell them cheaper. From the Paintball Business Journal: "We've been talking to several people involved (but unnamed for now) that are saying a move to 50 caliber could almost double the number of balls you'll get in a case of paint, with only a $1 or $2 increase in price" Reply With Quote

Ok but my question was how are they selling the cheaper? It seems that their costs won't change a ton for the manufacturers so are they going to take less profit per ball and hope to make it up in the volume? Or are the costs of these balls significantly cheaper for the manufacturer somehow?

[Reiner]

Ok but my question was how are they selling the cheaper? It seems that their costs won't change a ton for the manufacturers so are they going to take less profit per ball and hope to make it up in the volume? Or are the costs of these balls significantly cheaper for the manufacturer somehow?

I assume the manufacturing will be considerably cheaper. Raw materials will be cut considerably (volume is only about 40% of the .68 balls). I'm sure the machines will be able to be re-tooled to spit considerably more paintballs out per hour. It's going to cost about the same to ship a case of 4-5,000 paintballs as a case of 2,000 .68 calibre. Packaging cost per ball will be cut in half. I don't see why they wouldn't be considerably cheaper to manufacture, package and ship.

[Watcher]

.50 would be better for pistols and such, but how am I to convert my Automag, Autococker, Tippmann, Phantom, and Trracer from .68 when the switch is finally and eventually made?

And why do I see DesertEagle modeled pistols as commonplace?

[Lohman446]

One of the killers of new paintball marker sales is - well lack of need. The fact of the matter is if we are going to cap the ROF the Vision shockers from 2003 are competetive with the Shockers produced today (or whatever is produced). The old Egos are competetive. People do not NEED to upgrade to be competetive.

If we can find a competetive advantage to changing paintball size (or manufacture one in the minds of the agg kiddies) than we can "force" everyone who wants to be competetive to transfer over.

Worse, what if we can convince its a safety issue. I would assume here they are using the same mass in a smaller ball for improved flight characteristics and thus there is no safety change (or minimal). However, if I could convince insurance companies and field owners that there was a direct safety increase with smaller balls I could force a conversion.

The good news is this is not the track taken. Even if they are successful in marketing .50 they will probably patent it so tightly that not everyone will switch over. This will cause multiple calipers to be available.

I mean, the advent of the .40 does not mean that I can't buy 9MM ammo when I go to shoot. There is no reason we cannot expect to find both readily available IF they succeed from the marketing side.

[Doobie]

Since they are the only manufacturer of said paintballs and most fields are FPO, they would have to sign up a lot of fields to buy the paint and provide guns to shoot it. Lots of fields have contracts with other paint manufactures as well. They are in for an uphill battle.

[Lohman446]

Since they are the only manufacturer of said paintballs and most fields are FPO, they would have to sign up a lot of fields to buy the paint and provide guns to shoot it. Lots of fields have contracts with other paint manufactures as well. They are in for an uphill battle.

I don't think a lot of fields are contractually obligated to any manufacturer. If a field can buy these cheaper they might actually encourage them to use them.

That being said. Are fields going to be able to get people to shoot more paint to make up for the cheaper prices. Margins being what they are if amount of paint shot stays the same it would lead fields to not switch. 30% profit @ $30 a case (cost) is a whole lot better than 30% at $15 a case (cost). Numbers are for example only. If I am going to sell 100 cases a week I would make more $$ selling the higher cost paint. Using the numbers above $450 vs $900. I don't think we can increase the amount shot much more than it is now, so the "economics of scale" argument is out.

[insixdays777]

Field owners be prepared to pay higher insurance premiums to accommodate a more expansive policy for these new .50s....

[maniacmechanic]

This is what i'm going to do...

Nothing. Until I start seeing actual prices and actual proof that these fly better.

Once that information is out there then I will start thinking about how to convert my existing arsenal over to .50 cal. But only thinking.

Until the cost of my current .68 cal paintballs go up due to decreased sales and phasing out I will continue to shoot .68 cal.

When prices go up on .68 cal paintballs I will start making what is needed to convert my mags and cockers. Luckily I know a few guys that could design and manufacture such products.

I will not put 1 extra penny into any paintball marker manufacturers pocket. Unless AGD themselves produces a conversion kit.

In total agreement !!!

I assume the manufacturing will be considerably cheaper. Raw materials will be cut considerably (volume is only about 40% of the .68 balls). I'm sure the machines will be able to be re-tooled to spit considerably more paintballs out per hour. It's going to cost about the same to ship a case of 4-5,000 paintballs as a case of 2,000 .68 calibre. Packaging cost per ball will be cut in half. I don't see why they wouldn't be considerably cheaper to manufacture, package and ship.

I would have thought the other way , especially with start up costs , if they have the machines , they will only have to build new dies for all thier machines , R & D , testing , advertisment , patent rights , ect. ect. , think of the costs , then you have to pay the Lawyers
Then you have to retool all the marker companys , even a CNC machine , has to have someone to write all the new code for the machines , mega bucks , the smaller guys would Probley fold
" If volume is only about 40% of the .68 balls " , I would have thought a 50 cal ball would be only 34% smaller , therefor only saving 34% not 60%
Shipping there you could " save " money , your shipping the same weight but apr. 680 more paintballs , so the box would be the same size , " if " it were bigger i'm sure they will charge more or you will get a case of 2000 for the same price as your paying now
The way I see it is , the only way to turn this into a money maker , would be to be the ONLY one manufacturing the markers and paint & then get 68 cals. outlawed

[GoatBoy]

If you wanted to strongarm the paintball industry and use anti-competitive practices (say, for instance, selling products at a significantly lower price than cost just to put your competition out of business), who would be the first people you would go talk to?

Who has pockets deep enough for such behavior, as well as a historical desire to do such things to the industry?

Without data, that's all I can see coming out of this.

They should have released the data first, not a press release which is basically one long "Appeal to Authority" fallacy.



Taking the press release at face value:

My impression is that they will make the .50 cal ball proportionally heavier than a .68cal ball at 3.5g or whatever. (I wonder if I need to break out Dynamic Similitude to calculate the performance increase.)

Since they made reference to paint breaking being the "main problem", I figure they scored, segmented, or otherwise weaken the shell in some way to make it break easier. Maybe like that nub on the FS rounds if I recall. Or maybe dimpled paintballs. Who knows.

The safety argument will then come from this enhanced shell. Since the shell is designed to break easier, more energy is dissipated into splattering the paint than into a human body. It's the inverse of why paintball bounces tend to hurt more than ones that break.

The whole process for making these new paintballs is going to be patented, and someone's going to try to have a monopoly on it or something related to it. Return to the top of this post.

[thejere]

Seriously...how much do wholesale gelatin and fish oil cost?

I think you mean snake oil

They can fly further unless you change the muzzle velocity because Issac Newton force upon us the laws of physics. Disagree? I'll out science you in a heart beat.

The trouble is everyone shoots .68 cal, they have barrels, markers, hoppers, squeegees, condoms all sized for this. Its the same reason you wouldn't introduce 50hz electronics in the States.

[Lohman446]

I think you mean snake oil

They can fly further unless you change the muzzle velocity because Issac Newton force upon us the laws of physics. Disagree? I'll out science you in a heart beat.

The trouble is everyone shoots .68 cal, they have barrels, markers, hoppers, squeegees, condoms all sized for this. Its the same reason you wouldn't introduce 50hz electronics in the States.

Yeh, I disagree 100%

Because the PHYSICS of a .50 caliber ball are different than the PHYSICS of a .68 caliber ball. Less resistance might just equal that they fly further. That is part of PHYSICs isn't it?

[Beemer]

Disagree? I'll out science you in a heart beat.

.650 in.) and 18 mm (0.709 in.).

I have to check on the joules value max that is allowed but the ft.lbs of force is like 12, iirc.

The problem is we dont know what the Wt. or intended velocity is to remain safe.

Back in the day of the 62cal SMG we could go up on velocity cause it weighed LESS. 325 to 350FPS.

If the 50cal weighs less I dont see it going FURTHER or more accurate at the same fps.

If you make the 50cal the same weight wouldnt you have to decrease the velocity to keep it safe?

On a side note show me a ball that weighs in at 3.5G today. The most I have seen in the past few years is 3.2G and most come in at 2.8 to 3.1

One thing for sure is you want the smallest heaviest ball you can get.

[Reiner]

One thing for sure is you want the smallest heaviest ball you can get.

For flight characteristics. Not to for being on the receiving end of. :)