Smaller Balls are you ready?

[Beemer]

where did you get that second quote?

http://www.p8ntballer-forums.com/vb/...=122804&page=2 Post 60

[AGD]

Hello Everyone,

Well I don't come to the forum for a few days while I am chasing dinos and look what pops up.

First of all, I have actually PLAYED with 50 cal back in the day using Budd's Sniper. In the 80's 50 cal held the same hope it does today, a way to sell cheaper paint and get more of it in the gun. Back then it was a double bonus since a 12 gram would fire a whole lot more 50's than 68's. As you can imagine, the 50 had piss poor accuracy and didn't break. It was quickly given up on along with 62 cal. promoted by Tippmann.

My read of the story tells me something different that I will SPECULATE on. Richmond sold his company from what I understand, and likely has a specific non-compete. The 50 cal ball probably gets around this and this could be the major motivation. I know personally because we have the same thing between Pepper Ball and FN, in our case the weight of the ball makes the difference.

I have to think that as you have already speculated, they took the ability to make fragile paint and mixed in a heavy fill to get a small 3.3 gram paintball. This should in fact be more accurate and fly farther at the same velocity. The reduction in frontal area is a big plus and the issues with a smaller ball and vortex shedding should not negate all of those gains.

The big trick will be to see if they break well. With a 50 you are distributing the energy no matter what over a smaller area. The smaller shape of the ball makes it inherently harder to break all things being equal. I don't think you can go much thinner in the paint shell and still be able to seal it together so they are probably making the shell tensile strength weaker. By my estimations they will hurt more with 3.3 grams at 300 fps.

The fill will absolutely be the most challenging part hands down. I calculated that a 50 has .07 cu inch of fill against the 68 at .16. So a bit better than 2-1. In order to make a heavier 50, you have to come up with a NON-TOXIC fill that's TWICE as heavy. This is no easy task. Most liquids hover around a specific gravity of 1-1.5 ish. There are liquids that get up to 2.0 but they are all toxic that I know of. We used liquids to 3.0 in the early 90's when we were investigating paintball accuracy and I still have the stuff today because you can't throw it away.

So here is the specific problem the way I see it. In order to up the weight of the fill you have to put some type of particle in it. Ground rock, powdered metal (bismuth) etc. We went down this road, the problem was that we could never inject a slurry through a needle without the needle plugging up no matter what we did. Eventually we gave up and put the powder in first and the fluid in after. Today's gelatin machines absolutely depend on a needle injecting the fluid into the ball as it pinches off the seam. I am dying to see how they accomplish this but Richmond has some pretty smart people around him.

Other problems you don't think about are things like the size of the holes in the mask. A 50 can squeeze through a pretty small hole in a rubber mask guard. My question is who is going to build a motorized hopper for these guns???

The can fit way more holes in the drum of the gelatin machine so the output per hour per machine will probably be more than double having an impact on cost. The fill has to add to the price so we will see how it shakes out. Remember to calculate the price per POUND of 50 vs 68 paintballs to see if there was really an economic advantage.

In the final equation my personal opinion is that its a bad idea for paintball only because it puts us that much closer to airsoft. If cheaper smaller balls are a good idea, why not get the cheapest smallest balls you can find (airsoft)? We already made the guns look mil-sim and hands down the airsoft guns look cooler and go full auto. So I don't personally understand it but hey, Richmond made WAY more money in paintball than I ever did so he must see things I don't.

My final comment. Everyone seems to agree that the paintball industry has been in trouble for some time. If I was god-of-paintball and wanted to get the industry going. I would get all the existing manufacturers together and force them to agree to licensing anyone their patents for 5 years for a dollar. This would bring a flurry of new businesses back into the market and you would have a flood of new products and cool ideas. In my opinion, that would help paintball more than anything.

AGD

[Beemer]

My final comment. Everyone seems to agree that the paintball industry has been in trouble for some time. If I was god-of-paintball and wanted to get the industry going. I would get all the existing manufacturers together and force them to agree to licensing anyone their patents for 5 years for a dollar. This would bring a flurry of new businesses back into the market and you would have a flood of new products and cool ideas. In my opinion, that would help paintball more than anything.

Classic, epic, historic post. You didnt happen to stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night did ya?

Well the problem was only a few just wanted a slice of the pie and thought long term like you.

[cockerpunk]

http://www.p8ntballer-forums.com/vb/...=122804&page=2 Post 60

thank you.

as you probably read in my earlier post, all bets are off if they made them heavier. as tom was speculating, its gonna be hard to make them as heavy as paintballs, but if it can be done, then it will outperform 68. if its to light however, like 43, 50, and 62 before it, it wont deliver.

IMO the way to fix the industry is to make a sustainable business model supported with good marketing. the current trend seems to make these super low end guns that are super fast, and then market them to young kids via winning pro teams. IMO this is an unsustainable model because 14 year old kids have an attention span of 2 years in paintball. in my decade of playing i have seen just about 5 generations of young talented tournament players, rise to the top, then burn out and leave. so the sport required essentially massive growth, like a tobacco company if you will to keep the guns selling the companies making money. what we really need is a model that supports and fosters life long players.

[Reiner]

thank you.

as you probably read in my earlier post, all bets are off if they made them heavier. as tom was speculating, its gonna be hard to make them as heavy as paintballs, but if it can be done, then it will outperform 68.

Outperform in flight characteristics...yes! They will also outperform in pain inducing characteristics...not too excited about that.

what we really need is a model that supports and fosters life long players.

Don't agree with everything you say, but I totaly agree with that statement. The model we have evolved to in the paintball industry sucks as far as fostering long life players (especially the ones that only last a day).

[Ninjeff]

Hello Everyone,

Well I don't come to the forum for a few days while I am chasing dinos and look what pops up.

First of all, I have actually PLAYED with 50 cal back in the day using Budd's Sniper. In the 80's 50 cal held the same hope it does today, a way to sell cheaper paint and get more of it in the gun. Back then it was a double bonus since a 12 gram would fire a whole lot more 50's than 68's. As you can imagine, the 50 had piss poor accuracy and didn't break. It was quickly given up on along with 62 cal. promoted by Tippmann.

My read of the story tells me something different that I will SPECULATE on. Richmond sold his company from what I understand, and likely has a specific non-compete. The 50 cal ball probably gets around this and this could be the major motivation. I know personally because we have the same thing between Pepper Ball and FN, in our case the weight of the ball makes the difference.

I have to think that as you have already speculated, they took the ability to make fragile paint and mixed in a heavy fill to get a small 3.3 gram paintball. This should in fact be more accurate and fly farther at the same velocity. The reduction in frontal area is a big plus and the issues with a smaller ball and vortex shedding should not negate all of those gains.

The big trick will be to see if they break well. With a 50 you are distributing the energy no matter what over a smaller area. The smaller shape of the ball makes it inherently harder to break all things being equal. I don't think you can go much thinner in the paint shell and still be able to seal it together so they are probably making the shell tensile strength weaker. By my estimations they will hurt more with 3.3 grams at 300 fps.

The fill will absolutely be the most challenging part hands down. I calculated that a 50 has .07 cu inch of fill against the 68 at .16. So a bit better than 2-1. In order to make a heavier 50, you have to come up with a NON-TOXIC fill that's TWICE as heavy. This is no easy task. Most liquids hover around a specific gravity of 1-1.5 ish. There are liquids that get up to 2.0 but they are all toxic that I know of. We used liquids to 3.0 in the early 90's when we were investigating paintball accuracy and I still have the stuff today because you can't throw it away.

So here is the specific problem the way I see it. In order to up the weight of the fill you have to put some type of particle in it. Ground rock, powdered metal (bismuth) etc. We went down this road, the problem was that we could never inject a slurry through a needle without the needle plugging up no matter what we did. Eventually we gave up and put the powder in first and the fluid in after. Today's gelatin machines absolutely depend on a needle injecting the fluid into the ball as it pinches off the seam. I am dying to see how they accomplish this but Richmond has some pretty smart people around him.

Other problems you don't think about are things like the size of the holes in the mask. A 50 can squeeze through a pretty small hole in a rubber mask guard. My question is who is going to build a motorized hopper for these guns???

The can fit way more holes in the drum of the gelatin machine so the output per hour per machine will probably be more than double having an impact on cost. The fill has to add to the price so we will see how it shakes out. Remember to calculate the price per POUND of 50 vs 68 paintballs to see if there was really an economic advantage.

In the final equation my personal opinion is that its a bad idea for paintball only because it puts us that much closer to airsoft. If cheaper smaller balls are a good idea, why not get the cheapest smallest balls you can find (airsoft)? We already made the guns look mil-sim and hands down the airsoft guns look cooler and go full auto. So I don't personally understand it but hey, Richmond made WAY more money in paintball than I ever did so he must see things I don't.

My final comment. Everyone seems to agree that the paintball industry has been in trouble for some time. If I was god-of-paintball and wanted to get the industry going. I would get all the existing manufacturers together and force them to agree to licensing anyone their patents for 5 years for a dollar. This would bring a flurry of new businesses back into the market and you would have a flood of new products and cool ideas. In my opinion, that would help paintball more than anything.

AGD

Tom, i wish you came around more often.

[dark blade]

i wish you would adopt me haha. You're tests and data from the past have since inspired me to do my own research into the sport and im glad you still have input for us even though you are not currently owning a company .

god i wish AGD would make a huge comeback and get rid of SP

[DamianTC]

what we really need is a model that supports and fosters life long players.

Its funny you say that because it immediately made me think about when I played my first games at 15. 90% of the other players were in their mid-20's, 30's, and 40's. I used to read APG around that same time and it was the same way. Everything I seen about paintball back then, there was an elder figure to look up to.

It makes me smile when I go to the field now, and the young kids come over and ask me about the Emag. I must have shown how the warp works and given the Level 10 finger test about a 1,000 times nows.. And it never gets old. When you realize that the 5 minute talk you had with a 13 or 14 year old and he gave you more attention than he normally gives his teacher, you might have just got another player hooked on paintball for life. Its a good feeling to help grow our sport

[drg]

I'm surprised at the number of people who think how fast someone shoots is a really important skill in paintball, to the point where electronic asisstance is to be bemoaned ad infinitum.

Even if all the rest of the claims pan out, there is one thing that will be a problem regardless ... less paint = smaller splat. IMO marking ability is one of the most important differences between low end and high end balls, and I doubt 50 cal will be able to mark even as well as low end paint.

[paullus99]

Great post Tom - sounds like there are quite a few technical issues that need to be solved to bring something like this to market without outrageous R&D fees attached.

In general, I'm seeing more players with pumps at every game I play - it seems to be a combination of cost (less paint), more of a challenge, and wanting to have more fun than just spraying paint.

Paintball is an industry in flux - suffering from a lot of its own prior successes, and also from the current state of the economy. The credit crunch is preventing new investments and companies from entering the market, the flurry of lawsuits by HK isn't helping, and the lack of any real innovation over the past few years has resulted in a fairly stale market.

Throwing in a new paint size, if it is adopted by a major manufacturer, is an attempt to create a downstream sales market - new markers, new equipment (like masks), but we'll see what the insurance companies say about it. Everything right now is designed around the safety specs for .68 - and I doubt many insurance companies are going to be excited about the sliding scale of safety issues that could result (as Tom pointed out regarding the masks).

[cockerpunk]

Great post Tom - sounds like there are quite a few technical issues that need to be solved to bring something like this to market without outrageous R&D fees attached.

In general, I'm seeing more players with pumps at every game I play - it seems to be a combination of cost (less paint), more of a challenge, and wanting to have more fun than just spraying paint.

Paintball is an industry in flux - suffering from a lot of its own prior successes, and also from the current state of the economy. The credit crunch is preventing new investments and companies from entering the market, the flurry of lawsuits by HK isn't helping, and the lack of any real innovation over the past few years has resulted in a fairly stale market.

Throwing in a new paint size, if it is adopted by a major manufacturer, is an attempt to create a downstream sales market - new markers, new equipment (like masks), but we'll see what the insurance companies say about it. Everything right now is designed around the safety specs for .68 - and I doubt many insurance companies are going to be excited about the sliding scale of safety issues that could result (as Tom pointed out regarding the masks).

yes, i see from an industry point of view the appeal of this kind of thing, esp from the gardner brothers. its a quick fix, make everyone buy new stuff. again, its not really a sustainable idea though, the selling frenzy if they do get railroaded down our throats will only last so long. the gardners invented the marketing model that i previously alluded to, the unsustainable model based on new 14 year old blood. so it makes perfect sense that they would come up with a such an idea and bring richmond in on it.

from a consumer standpoint, this top down influence has been felt long enough in the industry IMO. the grass roots movement bringing back mech and pump guns is in full swing and is as strong as ever. at LL fully 1/3 or more of the players i saw were playing with mechs or pumps. 5 years ago, i was often the only pump player at big games. and now the industry is listening, you have the azodin KP which is Taylor made for new pump players, and even bob long is talking about making a pump from his old millennium bodies.

instead of telling players what to use, give us what we want.

[UThomas]

In order to up the weight of the fill you have to put some type of particle in it. Ground rock, powdered metal (bismuth) etc

What would this due to broken paint in the breach? Sounds like this could chew up a delrin bolt - or at least that would be a consideration?

[Flycatchr]

from a consumer standpoint, this top down influence has been felt long enough in the industry IMO. the grass roots movement bringing back mech and pump guns is in full swing and is as strong as ever. at LL fully 1/3 or more of the players i saw were playing with mechs or pumps. 5 years ago, i was often the only pump player at big games.

my last two outings i played mostly with the airowgun. 50 paintballs max.

[cockerpunk]

What would this due to broken paint in the breach? Sounds like this could chew up a delrin bolt - or at least that would be a consideration?

anything you add has to be cheap too ...

[Lohman446]

. Everything right now is designed around the safety specs for .68 - and I doubt many insurance companies are going to be excited about the sliding scale of safety issues that could result (as Tom pointed out regarding the masks).

Safety is not a buzzword that has driven any of the industry changes in the last few years IMO. Why start now