From MCB: Safety warning regarding SA8

[MANN]

End of discussion.

we are staying civil here. plus breakfast wont be ready for another 30 min or so.

[teufelhunden]

Wow.. since when did the above become AO? AO was always filled with reasonable and mature adults (or almost adults) who generally viewed themselves as (and acted as) protectors of the game. Protecting it from agg kiddies, protecting it from (what they viewed as) unscrupulous businesses, and protecting it from negative outside viewpoints as a means of keeping it on the societal up and up.

But now it's filled with people who see no problem with taking a piece of equipment engineered to be used as a weapon (that meaning something meant to cause physical harm and damage), playing garage tinkerer, and deciding its safe to shoot at other people who aren't physically threatening....

Sorry, that seems stupid. Even if your gun shoots 290 every single time, you're still an idiot playing with it. The one time that someone takes a PB to the eye from your 290 fps modified military/law enforcement weapon, either via your negligence or theirs, you are going to get murdered by any mediocre litigator -- you aren't playing with a toy like everybody else, you're playing with military surplus weaponry. The injured party had an expectation that everybody would be playing with toys, and your actions of using a military surplus weapon caused great physical and emotional harm to the injured party and his family. So pay up... probably not cheap. Also, the property owner will get dinged (especially if it's a real field and not outlaw, because they allowed someone to play with a military surplus weapon), probably try to go up the ladder to the retailer, wholesaler(s), and manufacturers too.

Additionally, you probably run a serious risk of being charged with a crime or a few, after all, you're assaulting someone...

Does any of this really seem that far fetched to any of you?




IANAL.

[MANN]

Does any of this really seem that far fetched to any of you?

I think it is very possible. Would it make a difference if player A was shooting an emag @ 400fps or a SA-8 at 400fps? would that change the tragic event of someone getting killed? The end result is the same; the only difference being the marker. Neither marker would be used according to its owners manual.

[Beemer]

Does any of this really seem that far fetched to any of you?

ummmmmm NOOOOOOOOOO. But then again paintball got stupid.

Mann.........its still all about THIS.

This product was produced and sold only for use as a less than lethal weapon.
NOT FOR RECREATIONAL USE

[MANN]

^^^ ummmmmm NOOOOOOOOOO. But then again paintball got stupid.

Mann.........its still all about THIS.

I agree. there are way too many people that play that dont understand how it should be played as a "game"

My only problem with banning something like this from a field is that there are too many modified markers out there that do not have every safety feature that they should. IMO if a marker can shoot below 280 I dont see a reason to not use it.

It would be interesting if fields did not allow custom/modified markers. No thumb velocity adjusters, no markers with cut off trigger guards, no safeties, only certain proven electronics, etc, etc. Would we want to play at a field with this many restrictions? Where you are not allow to "tinker" with your marker?

If I take a LLW and modify it. Does it than become a "safe" marker?

[Lohman446]

I have not seen mind do so. mine is set for 280, and it shoots 280, and I let it sit for a day and rechrono it, and it still shoots 280.

These are not weapons no more than an automag or autococker. Tiberius is just doing the CYA method so they dont get beat in a lawsuit. Everyone running around saying that they are "unsafe" is hilarious.

Mann, TK and Budd Orr never released statements such as the above. That is the major and important difference. Bought as a weapon and modified is different than bought as a paintball marker and modified. I mean I could modify a large bore revolver to fire paintballs using light charges I imagine, but it would not make it reasonable.

[Beemer]

I agree. there are way too many people that play that dont understand how it should be played as a "game"

My only problem with banning something like this from a field is that there are too many modified markers out there that do not have every safety feature that they should.

Agreed, some even come from the factory that way. The list is long. Like I said Paintball got stupid since I started Playing. That is why ALL my GUNS are set to OEM specs and I have an umbrella policy to CMA.

[smeek]

If I take a LLW and modify it. Does it than become a "safe" marker?

No you have to start with something designed and intended for marking trees not people.

[MANN]

Bought as a weapon and modified is different than bought as a paintball marker and modified.

I somewhat agree, but if you start with product A and product B, and modify A to make B are they the same?

I understand the legal aspect of it. Tiberus does not want people to use these because they could be held liable (especially with some of the wacko judges out there today). If a field owner asked me not to use mine I would have no problem. The same way if they asked me to only shoot 3bps, or mech only. Its their field we have to play by their rules. Same with handguns. On my property I make the rules on your property you make the rules.

I am talking more of the actual product. I guess I dont understand how just stating that a marker is a LLW automatically makes it one.

[MANN]

No you have to start with something designed and intended for marking trees not people.

That is sorta what I was talking about earlier. Some of my old markers were not anywhere near as adjustable as an SA-8. Oh and remember when we wore shop goggles to play. That use to be the "norm" I am sure those are not "safe"

[Beemer]

Oh and remember when we wore shop goggles to play. That use to be the "norm" I am sure those are not "safe"

They werent and its why they are outlawed. Who says RAMPING is SAFE????? Thats not legal if you follow ASTM standards.

[smeek]

Yea, I view this more as a legal concern than a true player's safety concern. I'm not sure on the differences or missing safety features of the T8 vs. SA8, but most fields have an arsenal of LLW clones as their rentals. What are the differences between Tippmann 98s and A5's and their LLW counterparts? A stock Tippmann fits the description of the SA8's lacking safety features since the only reg is on the bottle, and there's no over pressure blow off either.

[MANN]

Who says RAMPING is SAFE????? Thats not legal if you follow ASTM standards.

I agree. That is sorta why I am wondering why everyone is upset about this marker not having a low pressure relief valve, and being called a LLW. If half of the gear on the field is not up to standards than who cares about a guy with an orange/blue pistol?

[Smoothice]

This thread is funny.

"modify" and "garage tinkerer" both made me laugh.

So simply turning down a markers velocity is modifying? Using a markers built in and supplied velocity adjuster is tinkering?

Should I get a license to use a Allen key before adjusting the velocity on any of my markers?

If I have a laserer engrave "the world is flat" on my marker does that make it true?

[Lohman446]

I somewhat agree, but if you start with product A and product B, and modify A to make B are they the same?

I understand the legal aspect of it. Tiberus does not want people to use these because they could be held liable (especially with some of the wacko judges out there today). If a field owner asked me not to use mine I would have no problem. The same way if they asked me to only shoot 3bps, or mech only. Its their field we have to play by their rules. Same with handguns. On my property I make the rules on your property you make the rules.

I am talking more of the actual product. I guess I dont understand how just stating that a marker is a LLW automatically makes it one.

It does - think about a jury of twelve people, none of whom have likely played paintball and some who might be against it and against any private ownership of weapons. All the "convincing" you will try to convince them it was ok to play with will be lost in the above statements from Tiberius stating it was a weapon. Even if it was IDENTICAL (which it is not) to the marker you would be screwed because of what it was called. If any part was at all different, you are just more screwed