From MCB: Safety warning regarding SA8

[Frizzle Fry]

See I don't agree with this FF. If you KNOWINGLY take the markings off and go to a field that STATES they are not to be used, then you are still violating the policy.

Correct, but like you said, in function they're safe. I agree that if they shoot 280 they're fine. If you want to make yours into a Tac8 with some clever paint work then there won't be a problem.

The problem arises when you have a marker on the field that says "Not For Recreational Play" and is listed as a less-lethal self defense weapon. It's not a safety issue it's a legal issue.

[DevilMan]

Correct, but like you said, in function they're safe. I agree that if they shoot 280 they're fine. If you want to make yours into a Tac8 with some clever paint work then there won't be a problem.

The problem arises when you have a marker on the field that says "Not For Recreational Play" and is listed as a less-lethal self defense weapon. It's not a safety issue it's a legal issue.

True enough, but I would prefer that it not be an issue with the field in general. Meaning I would rather have it properly done from the top down. Not try to fix it from the bottom up. I would rather the rules and laws be in such a manner that there is no question on the lower level. Meaning, the rule states 280FPS. Your gadget, gizmo, whirlygig, apparatus, device, gun, marker, et al meets the criteria then you are good to go. Your gun decides mid day to malfunction then you get pulled from the field and get it fixed. You aren't allowed to use it. As long as it meets the safety guidelines.

I would rather it be logical and proper and not a reaction and charley foxtrot.

DM

[Frizzle Fry]

True enough, but I would prefer that it not be an issue with the field in general. Meaning I would rather have it properly done from the top down. Not try to fix it from the bottom up. I would rather the rules and laws be in such a manner that there is no question on the lower level. Meaning, the rule states 280FPS. Your gadget, gizmo, whirlygig, apparatus, device, gun, marker, et al meets the criteria then you are good to go. Your gun decides mid day to malfunction then you get pulled from the field and get it fixed. You aren't allowed to use it. As long as it meets the safety guidelines.

I would rather it be logical and proper and not a reaction and charley foxtrot.

DM

Agreed.

I've worked at two fields over the years and we have enough trouble with people keeping their $100 blowbacks under 300fps and their $1000 electros under 15bps. All it takes is some moron overshooting a 14 year old kid and giving him a "bloody bruise" and suddenly the waiver means nothing... Then you're in court talking to a judge about field netting and referees for 6 months, and it all culminates with your insurance company saying "Give them lots of money and they'll go away, or we'll give them lots of money and we won't go away".

Frankly, the best solution would be to have assessors from major insurance companies meet with field owners, players, ASTM committee members and paintball manufacturers so they can have a real understanding of what goes on. Once a precedent is set (other than the current one which consists of "pay the man") the cost of running a field will go down, so will legal tension about such simple issues. Right now the laywers and insurers shrug, and the judges hear and see "gun" and think "victim".

[Lohman446]

There are two issues here, and they seem to be getting confused. Two arguments come up:

Argument A: The SA-8 can be made as safe as any paintball marker. <---- for the purpose of discussion I am going to leave the can alone on this. I am going to note the manufacturer has said they cannot be but I will accept that there may be legal reasons they have said it.


Argument B: Using an SA-8 exposes the user and field to unacceptable liability risks.

The arguments are not mutually exclusive. They could both actually be true. The thing is, I don't believe any paintball marker 100% safe. Injury can (and does) result. Legal claims against those responsible can (and do) result. The difference is this. If I am using a paintball marker at least I can look up and say with full confidence I was using an item intended to be used in a recreational activity - specifically the game of paintball. I cannot say this with an SA8. I can say that "but I modified it so it would work" but the counter that the manufacturer EXPLICITLY stated it could not be done safely would overwhelm me.

As I said on MCB. I am pretty comfortable allowing others to play with whatever on the paintball field as long as it will consistently chrono at the field speed. I accept the level or risk involved. Do note that I believe the risk high enough that my child does not play paintball, and will not at a commercial field in the current environment of stupidity. I would not use an SA8 on the field, even one that had been modified and demonstrated to shoot at a "safe" speed. The liability risk (and I maintain it would be both civil and criminal) risk is FAR too high for me. I am amazed at the amount of risk I perceive people willing to take for a couple hundred dollars. I pay good money to isolate myself from that risk.

Either you are telling me my perception of the liability issue is totally wrong. Not just overblown, wrong. Of course I will hear "well you are not a lawyer". I have actually discussed paintball with my lawyer and insurance agent in the past. No one who tells me "you are not a lawyer" has any intention of seeking council on it, its a straw man defense. I am amazed at the amount of liability some people seem willing to accept to save a couple hundred dollars. I think I have to agree with Beemer on the mindset of players on that one.

And yes, it would be an issue. Think of these questions if someone is injured.

"So you used a modified weapon to play the game with and it resulted in injury?"

"The proper equipment would have cost you $200 more, is that correct?"

"The manufacturer offered you full credit to the purchase of the proper equipment"

I will ask you this simply. Was it worth it? Consider it for a moment. Beemer is right. My safety is worth far more than $200 to me. So is yours when we are playing. Unfortunately in modern paintball it seems I cannot expect the same consideration.

[DevilMan]

Lohman, I don't read the note from Tiberius as stating that the SA8 can NOT be adjusted to be safe. I read it as it's stated. It was not PRODUCED as such. That's all I'm getting at. Again my stance is just because it was not MADE to be used on a paintball field does not mean that's its unsafe to do so.

BTW, the SA8 I currently have in my possession does NOT have on it "For Police and Military Use Only"

You see, I'm not opposed to safety being enforced on the field. I'm opposed to the reaction of masses in that it's "DANGEROUS" and a "WEAPON" and all the other crap. You as a shooter should know this. Can you tell me ANY firearms manufacturer that supports or endorses "hot loading" a cartridge?

DM

[Coralis]

All I'm going to say on the subject is that if me or my wife get hurt by someone shooting one of these guns they can expect criminal and civil action being initiated. So I have to ask is it worth it ?

[Loguzzzzzz]

All I'm going to say on the subject is that if me or my wife get hurt by someone shooting one of these guns they can expect criminal and civil action being initiated. So I have to ask is it worth it ?

Sounds like a threat. . . . .People of Ocala Florida and surrounding areas be warned!!!


Does this mean that you are going to run around the field with a chrono too and check every gun that you or your wife get eliminated by too? Afterall they could be shooting in excess of 300 fps. which is in violation of the ASTM standards for paintball markers and I am sure is puishable in some way if you really looked hard enough. That is the only real difference other than a warning meant to protect the manufacturer.

I guess you will be checking every gun on the fields where you play as well. Since most of the time, I never know who has eliminated me. Good luck with that one.

If you are worried about being hurt then maybe paintball is not the sport for you, I have had welts that did not completely fade in over one year. Paintball is a dangerous sport and has assumed risks. All I can say is you better have a hand chrono ready in case you get welted in the field it, it could be an outlaw paintballer shooting hot.

[Coralis]

If you are worried about being hurt then maybe paintball is not the sport for you, I have had welts that did not completely fade in over one year. Paintball is a dangerous sport and has assumed risks. All I can say is you better have a hand chrono ready in case you get welted in the field it, it could be an outlaw paintballer shooting hot.

One of the assumed risks is that people on the field will be using equipment designed for paintball not less than lethal weaponry. Paintball is not a dangerous sport in my 24 years of playing I've seen only a handful of injuries any only one caused by a paintball and it was the kids own fault for taking his mask off in a game.

[RehKal]

All of those things WERE NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL in the beginning, BUT they were found to be safe as such. Has any testing been done on the SA-8 that deems it UNSAFE? NO. It simply says that it was NOT MADE FOR. Neither was any of the other stuff in its initial form. Was WD40 made for CIVILIAN use??? NO!

My point is, the SA8 may not have been produced FOR paintball. BUT, there is nothing that says it can't be used as such from a safety standpoint. The only "claim" out there is that it wasn't MADE as such.

If the SA8 can be found to operate within the safety parameters set forth by the field to comply with, then that's where it should be. IF it is found that it can NOT perform within the legally set/sanctioned safety guidelines than YES pull it. Right now, I see no difference in it's ability to pull a hot shot any more than any other marker on the field. They are ALL capable of shooting above the 300FPS legal limit. (TigerSharks excluded :) ) But as long as it can be adjusted as it stands in stock form with the given tools the same as any other marker can be without altering the item then it should be found to be OK to use. Has anyone found that its unsafe to use? NO. There has only be the statement from Tiberius stating that they were not produced to be used in this manner. SO WHAT! Most of the stuff was not made to be used in this manner.

DM

AGAIN!!! Do not read this as I find the SA8 to be 100% safe to use on a PB field. BUT, I do believe that saying "IT SHOULD BE OUTLAWED BECAUSE IT WAS NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL" is WRONG. If it can be found to not be safe to operate then sure thing pull it off. BUT since these WERE MADE FOR POLICE AND MILITARY USE... Don't you think they are built just as safe as anything else that you'll find on the field?....

You apparently didn't read the statement Tiberius released about the SA-8. Lemme quote some lines for you.

"First, it is important to understand that this product was never intended for any recreational activity and was not designed to fire .68 paintballs."

and

"This means the SA-8 is missing key safety components designed for the sport of paintball."

That's pretty clear that the SA-8 isn't intended or safe for paintball. And are you really saying most of the stuff isn't made for paintball? So all the markers, masks, protective gear, hoppers, etc aren't made for paintball? If not made for paintball what are they made for? Marking cattle or trees?

And actually no I don't believe the SA-8 was made with the same safety considerations that all other paintball gear. The SA-8 is made TO STOP PEOPLE AS A LESS LEATHAL WEAPON. Which means it WILL HIT HARDER. It is designed to bring a person down, to stop them without killing them. That's why we also have modified grenade launchers and shotguns that shoot beanbags. This thing isn't designed to give someone a tiny bruise and bit of a string when it hits them.

It's designed to bring a person to their knees and make them stop whatever they are doing.

And quite frankly, a standard paintball marker ain't gonna stop someone on a rampage.

[Smoothice]

And actually no I don't believe the SA-8 was made with the same safety considerations that all other paintball gear. The SA-8 is made TO STOP PEOPLE AS A LESS LEATHAL WEAPON. Which means it WILL HIT HARDER. It is designed to bring a person down, to stop them without killing them. That's why we also have modified grenade launchers and shotguns that shoot beanbags. This thing isn't designed to give someone a tiny bruise and bit of a string when it hits them.

so when loaded with the same make and model paint and shooting at the same velocity as a tac8. You think an sa-8 will "hit harder"?

So the name alone will cause it to hit harder? Do you work for smart parts or do you just believe in their marketing?

[RehKal]

so when loaded with the same make and model paint and shooting at the same velocity as a tac8. You think an sa-8 will "hit harder"?

So the name alone will cause it to hit harder? Do you work for smart parts or do you just believe in their marketing?

The name has nothing to do with it. It's the internals. Which Tiberius have allready said can't be easily changed to be the same as the Tac-8. It's the safety mechanisms in particular that Tiberius says ARE NOT THERE.

Pay attention and don't insult, it degrades your arguement.

[Smoothice]

The name has nothing to do with it. It's the internals. Which Tiberius have allready said can't be easily changed to be the same as the Tac-8. It's the safety mechanisms in particular that Tiberius says ARE NOT THERE.

Pay attention and don't insult, it degrades your arguement.

Please explain to me how if two markers are shooting at the same fps with the exact same paint how 1 can "hit harder"?

[RehKal]

Please explain to me how if two markers are shooting at the same fps with the exact same paint how 1 can "hit harder"?

Have you done extensive shot to shot testing on the SA-8? Or did you shoot two or three times over a chrono and say that's good enough?

Different safety mechanisms (or lack thereof in this case) means things like shot to shot consistency can change dramatically. The SA-8 doesn't have to be consistent because you aren't overly concerned with NOT causing harm. You just don't want to kill the person being shot. Therefore, it can hit harder.

And by extensive shot to shot testing I don't mean pulling the trigger once every 5 to 10 seconds or shooting just 200 rounds through it.

Try shooting fast, shooting slow and run a couple CASES of paint through it. Then tell me it's consistency.

[Loguzzzzzz]

I would like to know how many of these people have seen the internals of the SA8 compared to the T8 to see how different they really are.

They're about as different as a Classic valve compared to an X valve. The dump chamber and the power tube are the main differences. One has an adjustable relief valve and one has a fixed pressure relief valve. The SA8 has a different main regulator spring. The rest of the parts are the same except for the reciever engraving with the warning on it.

I understand the legalites off all of this but when engineering concepts and practice along with common sense are applied here there is really very little difference save for the engraving.

As I said earlier, in my opinion there is no difference between an SA8 shooting 320 -330 fps and an automag (or anyother paintball gun for that matter) shooting at the same velocity other than a warnings (one states it is not a toy and the other says it is not a toy and that it is not intended for recreational use) put onto them both to satisfy the liabilities aspect of things.

[MANN]

Some people on mcb chronoed their SA8s many times. It seems that if you chrono it @290, and invert the marker in warm temperatures that you can get a velocity spike as high as 340fps. This was not the norm, but did happen a few times.

Can other markers with CO2 have the same problems? yes. It is not uncommon for a tippmann or spyder(clone) to have 50 fps velocity spikes on a warm day. They do not have built in pressure relief valves.

So is 340 dangerous? Not really. Could it bruise/break skin? sure, but so can 300. Can it break through a mask? Highly unlikely. I remember when I started playing in the mid 90s we did not own chronos. Everyone shot their marker at a certain tree, and you would kinda guess to see if it shot too fast. (I know high liability, blah, blah, blah. Then again we were all friends playing)

So how can we fix the problem of causing these "outrageously high" velocity spikes?

The easiest way is chrono low @ 260. Not that scientific, but It would keep you close to 300. Your consistency is not going to be great, but it will be on par with a spyder, tippmann, etc.

The hard way is to fill your fill chamber with spacers. Keep your marker set on the high velocity (shooting over 400fps from the factory), and fill the dump chamber with some type of spacer. PA(1)=PA(2) for you science people. This would allow your marker to vent automatically at the chance that you get liquid co2 in your dump chamber. You dont have to worry about changing springs, adjusting anything. The hard part is to figure out how much volume needs to be replaced. I am fresh out of paint, and need to get more 12ies. None the less that is the easiest solution if you are worried about these causing catastrophic damage.

Of course if your field does not allow these you are still sol. Me personally I dont care. I will just set mine low. I am not the type to carry a spare marker with me anyways.