From MCB: Safety warning regarding SA8

[DevilMan]

If I shoot someone with something that was manufactured and sold as a weapon I am not playing a game. If injury results civil issues might be a secondary concern.

If you shoot someone with something marked as "NOT A TOY" then what are you doing?

You "PLAY" with TOYS??? What do you do with paintball "GUNS" & "MARKERS"

Pretty much every sport has an item in it that if used incorrectly can kill or maim either the user or someone else. Look at bowling? Darts??? Golf?? Horseshoes? Hockey? OH NO what about BASEBALL??? Is a Baseball bat a TOY? If used incorrectly it can kill you no???

blah blah... you are trying to split hairs. Tiberius is trying to cover their butt, and that's all fine and well. If your marker chronos within the field limit then what's the issue? Do you honestly believe that the SA8 is the only thing out there that is capable of putting out a hot shot? What about when the inline reg goes bad and you start pumping 800 PSI to the valve. I bought an angel years back that when I took it to the chrono it was showing 450 and 475 FPS.... Did I play with it??? NOT UNTIL I FIXED IT, and got it within the field limits.

You all talk about the mag and the relief valve. Yes that is true it has one. Have you ever turned your mag up to max PSI before it starts leaking out the back and see what FPS you are putting down range? Why don't you look and see, and I think you'll find that even with the safety blow off, that it can still push up to almost 500 FPS before it lets it leak off.

DM

[classicmagplayer]

Because it's not a straight exchange. The deal is a $100 credit. That still leaves the person making up another $85+ in some cases. Does Tiberius have to do this. NO. But it's not a straight trade.

DM

http://splatme.co.uk/paintball-gun/p...tol-marker.htm first link when searching for "SA8 paintball" on google.

[DevilMan]

http://splatme.co.uk/paintball-gun/p...tol-marker.htm first link when searching for "SA8 paintball" on google.

The thing is Tiberius did NOT sell these. PepperBall did. It's like a car lot selling you a chevy that they know is leaking and about to go in the crapper but they sell it to you anyway, then you get stuck on the side of the road and want to blame Chevrolet for the issue. It's not up to the maker. Tiberius did not make these for the "public" so to speak. So they are trying to offer up your money back since the package cost you $100. They are giving you the $100 back towards one of their products.

Tiberius is not needing to or responsible at all with the program. I don't fault them for what they are doing and find it very nice of them in fact. But this has grown and grown into a matter of what can and can not be used on a field to launch a gelatin ball filled with colored goo at each other. The way I see it, you play by the chrono rules, the full auto rules, the safety rules, then you are good to go.

In terms of "Full Refund" that should come from PepperBall NOT Tiberius.

DM

[Lohman446]

If you shoot someone with something marked as "NOT A TOY" then what are you doing?

You "PLAY" with TOYS??? What do you do with paintball "GUNS" & "MARKERS"

Pretty much every sport has an item in it that if used incorrectly can kill or maim either the user or someone else. Look at bowling? Darts??? Golf?? Horseshoes? Hockey? OH NO what about BASEBALL??? Is a Baseball bat a TOY? If used incorrectly it can kill you no???

blah blah... you are trying to split hairs. Tiberius is trying to cover their butt, and that's all fine and well. If your marker chronos within the field limit then what's the issue? Do you honestly believe that the SA8 is the only thing out there that is capable of putting out a hot shot? What about when the inline reg goes bad and you start pumping 800 PSI to the valve. I bought an angel years back that when I took it to the chrono it was showing 450 and 475 FPS.... Did I play with it??? NOT UNTIL I FIXED IT, and got it within the field limits.

You all talk about the mag and the relief valve. Yes that is true it has one. Have you ever turned your mag up to max PSI before it starts leaking out the back and see what FPS you are putting down range? Why don't you look and see, and I think you'll find that even with the safety blow off, that it can still push up to almost 500 FPS before it lets it leak off.

DM

Difference between being marked not a toy and not for recreational activity. Severe difference between being marked not a toy and a manufacturer specifically stating it is not intended or safe for paintball.

[classicmagplayer]

The thing is Tiberius did NOT sell these. PepperBall did. It's like a car lot selling you a chevy that they know is leaking and about to go in the crapper but they sell it to you anyway, then you get stuck on the side of the road and want to blame Chevrolet for the issue. It's not up to the maker. Tiberius did not make these for the "public" so to speak. So they are trying to offer up your money back since the package cost you $100. They are giving you the $100 back towards one of their products.

Tiberius is not needing to or responsible at all with the program. I don't fault them for what they are doing and find it very nice of them in fact. But this has grown and grown into a matter of what can and can not be used on a field to launch a gelatin ball filled with colored goo at each other. The way I see it, you play by the chrono rules, the full auto rules, the safety rules, then you are good to go.

In terms of "Full Refund" that should come from PepperBall NOT Tiberius.

DM

I agree in that case, PepperBall should be the one doing the refunding.

Its a bit ridiculous that Tiberius is offering this exchange up program, but the PepperBall site doesnt even mention something like "This is not suitable for recreational paintball use".

Its like PepperBall is running under the assumption that paintball players will never hear of the SA-8 and the price for the gun and 2 clips vs the cost of the Tiberius models.

[MANN]

You will still end up losing if you send it to tib. Most of the shipping on the markers was 20 bucks, and shipping to tiberius and paying for shipping back to you for your new marker will also add up. You figure you are going to spend 140 for 100 worth of product.

[RehKal]

Well since they manufacture Bow N Arrow kits, BlowGun kits, and you can even use mortars and sling shots to propel a paintball, not to mention the mines and grenades, I'd be hard pressed to call ANY of those things TOYS. And if you are trying to decode what is and is not a weapon, well I think that's going to be a can of worms all in itself.

Again, there are markers that are on the field that have no safeties on them, and there are those that have no trigger guard. There are some that are even home made to some extent.

If you shoot someone with something marked as "NOT A TOY" then what are you doing?

You "PLAY" with TOYS??? What do you do with paintball "GUNS" & "MARKERS"

Pretty much every sport has an item in it that if used incorrectly can kill or maim either the user or someone else. Look at bowling? Darts??? Golf?? Horseshoes? Hockey? OH NO what about BASEBALL??? Is a Baseball bat a TOY? If used incorrectly it can kill you no???

DM

That's just it. All those things are designed, tested, manufactored and approved for use in the sport of paintball. The SA-8 IS NOT. It's that simple. The SA-8 IS NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL. Why take the chance and use it?

This isn't about misusing something made for the sport. This is about using something that isn't designed for the sport.

[DevilMan]

That's just it. All those things are designed, tested, manufactored and approved for use in the sport of paintball. The SA-8 IS NOT. It's that simple. The SA-8 IS NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL. Why take the chance and use it?

This isn't about misusing something made for the sport. This is about using something that isn't designed for the sport.

All of those things WERE NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL in the beginning, BUT they were found to be safe as such. Has any testing been done on the SA-8 that deems it UNSAFE? NO. It simply says that it was NOT MADE FOR. Neither was any of the other stuff in its initial form. Was WD40 made for CIVILIAN use??? NO!

My point is, the SA8 may not have been produced FOR paintball. BUT, there is nothing that says it can't be used as such from a safety standpoint. The only "claim" out there is that it wasn't MADE as such.

If the SA8 can be found to operate within the safety parameters set forth by the field to comply with, then that's where it should be. IF it is found that it can NOT perform within the legally set/sanctioned safety guidelines than YES pull it. Right now, I see no difference in it's ability to pull a hot shot any more than any other marker on the field. They are ALL capable of shooting above the 300FPS legal limit. (TigerSharks excluded ) But as long as it can be adjusted as it stands in stock form with the given tools the same as any other marker can be without altering the item then it should be found to be OK to use. Has anyone found that its unsafe to use? NO. There has only be the statement from Tiberius stating that they were not produced to be used in this manner. SO WHAT! Most of the stuff was not made to be used in this manner.

My point is, if the SA8 can be made to operate within the guidelines then there should not be an issue. You can run on the hypotheses all day long about what may or may not happen, but if you look at the founding of the carbon fiber bottle I bet you'll also find that they were not made initially to be used in paintball.

Do you see any warnings on radio controlled trucks that say NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL???? Have you ever seen someone use one on a PB field? If not go to a scenario sometime. Have you ever seen a warning on a wooden knife that says NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL? Were they made for paintball? NO!!!! But they can be used if found to be used in a safe manner. Can you hurt, maim or kill someone with a wooden or plastic knife? YES. Are they allowed to be used? YES. If done so following proper safety guidelines.

The definition between "WEAPON" and "TOY" is about as grey as the definition of "KNIFE", "TOOL", "CUTTING UTENSIL" and "EDGED WEAPON". A pen and pencil can be used as a WEAPON. A piece of newspaper can be made into a WEAPON. The point being, the definition of such covers such a wide range of things, that saying anything that can be used to cause harm is a "WEAPON" then you'll have to start getting fingerprinted to buy fishing line, guitar strings, paint stripper, bleach, and 90% of anything else out there. And if you think for a second that something can't be weaponized, then just take some to a prison and give it out to the inmates and see what they come up with for ya.

DM

[DevilMan]

AGAIN!!! Do not read this as I find the SA8 to be 100% safe to use on a PB field. BUT, I do believe that saying "IT SHOULD BE OUTLAWED BECAUSE IT WAS NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL" is WRONG. If it can be found to not be safe to operate then sure thing pull it off. BUT since these WERE MADE FOR POLICE AND MILITARY USE... Don't you think they are built just as safe as anything else that you'll find on the field?

Just because they can be adjusted to shoot at a higher FPS than 300 FPS does not make it an automatic ban. If that were the case most guns out there would not be allowed. If it is found that it can't safely operate BELOW that or whatever limit the field sets then YES it should not be used.

Right now there is no foundation that it can not be operated within the limits.

DM

[Frizzle Fry]

"IT SHOULD BE OUTLAWED BECAUSE IT WAS NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL" is wrong

I agree completely.

"It should be outlawed because it was made to be a "less-lethal"* personal defense weapon" is more accurate.




*"Less-Lethal" is very different than non-lethal. It doesn't mean it won't hurt or kill you, it means it's less likely to hurt or kill you.

[DevilMan]

I agree completely.

"It should be outlawed because it was made to be a "less-lethal"* personal defense weapon" is more accurate.




*"Less-Lethal" is very different than non-lethal. It doesn't mean it won't hurt or kill you, it means it's less likely to hurt or kill you.

Are cars made to be LESS LETHAL Weapons? NO! But if you try to run someone over, you'll get tagged with "Assault with a deadly weapon" Same as a ball bat, a crow bar, an axe handle and many other things.

So are you saying that all other paintball guns are NON-LETHAL?

So since PepperBall sells those Tippmanns does that mean that all Tippmanns should be outlawed as well? Since PB sells theirs as "LESS LETHAL WEAPON OF SELF DEFENCE"???

DM

[DevilMan]

They werent and its why they are outlawed.

I don't think that saying that goggles are OUTLAWED is a true statement. I think they are not used as much anymore because it hurts to take a PB in the face. BUT the wearing of goggles such as those for ski'ing, dirt biking, and such is still allowed.

DM

[Frizzle Fry]

Are cars made to be LESS LETHAL Weapons? NO! But if you try to run someone over, you'll get tagged with "Assault with a deadly weapon" Same as a ball bat, a crow bar, an axe handle and many other things.

So are you saying that all other paintball guns are NON-LETHAL?

So since PepperBall sells those Tippmanns does that mean that all Tippmanns should be outlawed as well? Since PB sells theirs as "LESS LETHAL WEAPON OF SELF DEFENCE"???

DM

Very true, but the fact of the matter is that these are branded as less-lethal weapons. I'm aware that a car, frying pan, or even a "shod foot" (or foot with a shoe on it) can be considered a weapon in court, but they are only considered such under circumstances when they are used as a weapon. A gun, tazer, or pepperball launcher is considered a weapon even when it's not being used, brandished or wielded.

I agree with you completely about the function of the gun; if it works it works, if it's safe it's safe. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way from a legal standpoint and I can understand 100% why Tiberius doesn't want these used for paintball, and why fields won't allow them. Frankly, I'd just obliterate the markings on mine and use it. If you don't remove the signs that it's an SA-8 not a Tac8, you're putting your field and the company at risk.

[DevilMan]

BTW, I don't think PepperBall should be responsible for offering a refund. It is NOT their duty to ask you what you plan on using the SA8 for. It is not their responsibility to make sure you don't shoot a cat, a road sign, a tree, a skunk, a dog, your principals car or even each other with it. They state that they are free and clear of any liability on how it's used when you buy it.

It's not on them to fix what you break. This nanny'fication of the masses is going to kill us all.

Do any of you know the rules and regs on the purchase of ATV's?

Any of you ever ride ATV's????

Well here are the rules that more than likely you broke...

Age of Operator................ ATV Engine Size
Under 6 years of age......... No operation recommended
Age 6 to 11..................... Under 70cc.
Age 12-15....................... 70-90cc.
16 years and older............. Over 90cc.

Do you realize that you are legally able to DRIVE A CAR ON THE ROAD!!!! At the same age as you are allowed to ride a quad with an engine greater than 90cc!!!!!

More reading....

Power and Speed. The Consumer Product Safety Commission (CSPS) has issued an ATV Safety Alert regarding engine size suggestions for young riders. The CPSC considers that an adult size ATV has an engine of 90cc and greater and suggest youth be at least 16 years old to operate an adult size ATV.

AN ADULT SIZED ATV IS 90CC OR GREATER!!!! Anyone over 18 years of age on this site ever ridden a 90CC quad????

So do any of you have any idea how big a 90cc quad is???? Compared to a 12-15 year old kid? Even a SMALL kid is still way big on such.

Do you realize that if you go into a store and tell the sales person you are looking for a new quad for your 13 year old son, that by LAW they can not let you buy any quad in the store over 90cc in size???

If you think this is irrelevant to the subject it's not. It goes hand in hand with the release of liability. If you go into a store and tell them you want to buy a quad for your son for his birthday they can ask you anything in the world about him, and as long as you choose not to disclose his age you can buy what you want. If you state that you want to buy something that you and he can share and you tell them the age then you'll be sharing a 90cc or less with him. The liability for the use is transferred from the store to YOU upon the purchase of the vehicle. IF the store says, sorry this can only be used to pull a wagon and nothing else, and you use it without a wagon, then the fault is on you. It is NOT the companies responsibility to make sure you use their product correctly. This has been found and proven when a few of the major cities went back on the firearm manufacturers and tried to sue them all for damages caused by firearm use. If there was a homicide or a suicide or a rape or anything that caused damage to the city, they tried to get the firearm makers to pay them for the damages. It was thrown out.

DM

[DevilMan]

Very true, but the fact of the matter is that these are branded as less-lethal weapons. I'm aware that a car, frying pan, or even a "shod foot" (or foot with a shoe on it) can be considered a weapon in court, but they are only considered such under circumstances when they are used as a weapon. A gun, tazer, or pepperball launcher is considered a weapon even when it's not being used, brandished or wielded.

I agree with you completely about the function of the gun; if it works it works, if it's safe it's safe. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way from a legal standpoint and I can understand 100% why Tiberius doesn't want these used for paintball, and why fields won't allow them. Frankly, I'd just obliterate the markings on mine and use it. If you don't remove the signs that it's an SA-8 not a Tac8, you're putting your field and the company at risk.

See I don't agree with this FF. If you KNOWINGLY take the markings off and go to a field that STATES they are not to be used, then you are still violating the policy.

I'm fine with a field saying not to use them.... IF they are found to be UNSAFE. There is nothing that points to this. It's the same as a field that says NO RED PAINT!!!! If you shoot red they pull you. Is there any reason that you shouldn't be allowed to shoot red paint for safety reasons? NO! But it's house rules. They say not to use it, so don't use it.

The point I am trying to make is before everyone goes out and starts up that they are in fact unsafe, why don't someone offer up proof or a logical reason. I'm sorry, but "Because I said so" don't fly to far with me. If Tiberius wants to clear their name from the issue, which they have done then all is cool on their side. If they can be found to be faulty or unsafe in use as dictated by the field then sure pull them. BUT, don't do it just because the maker wants them off. Am I suggesting that I'd like to see someone get hurt or killed from one of these??? NO!!! BUT, until some concrete data comes to light about a malfunction of sorts that is KNOWN to be a danger they should not be limited.

It's like saying, "Because your car don't have a parking brake it's a danger" Why???? Should it have one? Is it a safety device of sorts? But is it illegal that yours is broken or don't work or out of adjustment? Can you get killed because of it's in operation??? Possible, but not likely.

DM