I don't get it...I really dont.

[tribalman]

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by factoid
There's still a cult following though.

fixed

there's kool-ade somewhere?

Funny, no one even mentions Autocockers anymore. It used to be the biggest rivalry, then it was deemed that the cocker won the battle...but who won the war?
Dan@Triggernomics

yeah, it's sad not seeing/hearing cockers on the field too much anymore. last few times i've gone it's only been myself with my pump cocker and a friend with his mech cockers.

[Frizzle Fry]

twist-lock barrels are super convenient for servicing. I like them a lot for that...but they were bad for a number of reasons.

For efficiency: You can't directly match the bolt to the breech so you lose transfer efficiency with every shot. It's not a massive loss, but it's there, especially with large bore barrels.

For manufacturing: It's more expensive and more complicated to manufacture

for accuracy: the twist-lock barrel has quite a bit of "wobble" in it. It may not be all that significant except at very long distances (probably longer than most paintballs travel) but it's there.

Twist locks tend to be a larger bore because they were made 10 years ago. Almost every barrel made between 1990 and 1999 was a large bore due to paint size. At that time, there weren't many stock barrels with control bores, either. That said, many after market automag barrels have a stepped control bore... I'm no physicist, but wouldn't having a stepped control bore in a one piece barrel/breech assembly significantly reduce energy loss over that of a large bore or a two piece stepped bore with a seam? Either way, between my Autospirit and Freak twistlocks, I didn't have a problem.

Manufacturing? That's not a valid excuse... Most manufacturers are set up to make threaded barrels, but once your shop is producing both, the difference in time and cost is negligible. If you're dealing with brass, that's a different story, but with aluminum or SS it's not a problem. Initial tooling costs are one thing, but the barrel companies who were around then and still make twistlock now don't have a problem delivering twistlocks at the same profit margin, or I should say, wouldn't if the demand were greater. I have a feeling the cost rumor started up a few years ago when PPS decided to throw their hat in the twistlock ring, being a small shop that works mostly in brass.

As for accuracy, I don't know what's wrong with your classic mags, but with good O-rings and a properly adjusted twistlock assembly, you shouldn't be encountering any wobble. Perhaps not owning a twistlock mag that you purchased directly from AGD, you might have a barrel who's O-rings were replaced with smaller/thinner ones? It happens. Even if a wobbly barrel was a regular issue, I have to ask, would it really matter? Paintballs are notoriously inaccurate at long distances, and in paintball, 80 feet is "long distance".


Lastly, why are we even talking about SS bodied mags? Granted they made for cheaper rentals, and were the original rental, but the ULE body was around before AGD really fell from the forefront of the paintball scene, and twistlock barrels were retired... Why not use unmilled slug bodies with RENTAL stamped in the side? Cocker threading is popular, CF frames are indestructible, and classic valves are pretty hard to destroy.

[factoid]

Autocockers supposedly went to crap around 2004-2006 when they switched their manufacturing over to China. Quality went through the floor and it never really came back.

It's really sad that a few weeks ago some dude showed up with an ICE Epic and swore up and down that it was a "walmart autococker" made after they switched to chinese manufacturing.

He didn't believe me when I told him that those were once very expensive markers and not related to cockers in any way.

The fact that it's basically a bolt-less blowgun didn't deter him. Part of me wanted to give him a lowball offer like $100 bucks to see if he'd part with it. That's how misunderstood these markers are today.

[Frizzle Fry]

Autocockers supposedly went to crap around 2004-2006 when they switched their manufacturing over to China. Quality went through the floor and it never really came back.

It's really sad that a few weeks ago some dude showed up with an ICE Epic and swore up and down that it was a "walmart autococker" made after they switched to chinese manufacturing.

He didn't believe me when I told him that those were once very expensive markers and not related to cockers in any way.

The fact that it's basically a bolt-less blowgun didn't deter him. Part of me wanted to give him a lowball offer like $100 bucks to see if he'd part with it. That's how misunderstood these markers are today.

ICE markers are still worth a bit. Was it a DV8 or a classic?

Either way, cockers went to crap when WGP sold. Except the Jeff Orr signatures. Trilogies aren't bad starter guns, god knows the quality control was better than most of the crappy DYE clones that were floating around, but it shipped with a large bore barrel and most didn't have clamping feednecks, and they wondered why it couldn't keep up with spyders and tippmanns.

[tribalman]

Trilogies aren't bad starter guns, god knows the quality control was better than most of the crappy DYE clones that were floating around, but it shipped with a large bore barrel and most didn't have clamping feednecks, and they wondered why it couldn't keep up with spyders and tippmanns.

with my ricochet AK and freak set it's good to go. although i've since switched it over to pump and a 100 round hopper...

[Frizzle Fry]

with my ricochet AK and freak set it's good to go. although i've since switched it over to pump and a 100 round hopper...

I keep a MASSIVELY modified one as a loaner. She's known as "The Fugly Duckling" due to the strange dust gray/silver/purple anodizing. It wears a 12v Revvy or Apache (the only ones that fit it OK) and will soon get an iFit so I don't need to keep dripping nail polish in the barrel to prevent rollouts... Kinda wish there were more feedneck options though. It's not a terrible marker; just not as easy to learn on as a Tippmann or Spyder I'd say.

Now that I think about it, I bet they shipped those things with a .691 and .695 barrel in hopes that people would buy the rest of their kit.

[factoid]

ICE markers are still worth a bit. Was it a DV8 or a classic?

Either way, cockers went to crap when WGP sold. Except the Jeff Orr signatures. Trilogies aren't bad starter guns, god knows the quality control was better than most of the crappy DYE clones that were floating around, but it shipped with a large bore barrel and most didn't have clamping feednecks, and they wondered why it couldn't keep up with spyders and tippmanns.

I've never actually owned an Epic, so I'm not sure if it was the DV8 or the classic. It looks like it was either fairly new or an old one in excellent condition. The guy had only played with it like two or three times at that point.

I'm only familiar with them personally because I traded markers for a game once. He'd never shot a Mag and I'd never shot an Epic, so we swapped. It was a bizarre feeling to shoot that thing. Sounds funny and no vibration from the bolt cycling, because obviously there isn't one.

oh and I lol'ed when I read your comment about the "nail polish trick". I haven't seen that done in YEARS.

[Frizzle Fry]

I've never actually owned an Epic, so I'm not sure if it was the DV8 or the classic. It looks like it was either fairly new or an old one in excellent condition. The guy had only played with it like two or three times at that point.

I'm only familiar with them personally because I traded markers for a game once. He'd never shot a Mag and I'd never shot an Epic, so we swapped. It was a bizarre feeling to shoot that thing. Sounds funny and no vibration from the bolt cycling, because obviously there isn't one.

oh and I lol'ed when I read your comment about the "nail polish trick". I haven't seen that done in YEARS.

Centerfeed = DV8

Right/Leftfeed = Classic

I've got a DV8 myself... ICE is still going strong-ish and I just rebuilt the whole sucker for the first time (not that it needed it). Honestly, shooting one is like shooting an Angel LED after 6 years of 'cockers, spyders and mags. It's like... air. Nothing more. I hope you enjoyed it; you rarely see those suckers on the field.

As for the nailpolish trick... well... it beats the ducttape trick

[cockerpunk]

its acutally pretty simple.

for less money you can have a gun that is faster, lighter, smaller, more efficient, and does not require tuning.

its a no brainer for someone who isn't into classic guns.

[factoid]

its acutally pretty simple.

for less money you can have a gun that is faster, lighter, smaller, more efficient, and does not require tuning.

its a no brainer for someone who isn't into classic guns.

To be fair, you can buy them pre-tuned and they rarely drop out unless you're like us on the forums and tinker endlessly with your markers. Keep oil in it and you're good to go.

They are definitely less efficient and heavier than similarly priced guns on the market today, but then again most spool valve guns are a bit on the heavy side.

I'm not so sure about faster though...you've done the tests...how many markers out there can really cycle faster than a mag with an RT valve? How many places besides your own back yard let you shoot uncapped anyway?

[brycelarson]

I'm not so sure about faster though...you've done the tests...how many markers out there can really cycle faster than a mag with an RT valve? How many places besides your own back yard let you shoot uncapped anyway?

yes, in Rt mode they're crazy fast - however, that's uncontrolled uncapped. electronic controls are more precise and can be controlled - ie fire modes.

the emag is a great contender - but is significantly heavier than equivalent modern guns.

[cockerpunk]

To be fair, you can buy them pre-tuned and they rarely drop out unless you're like us on the forums and tinker endlessly with your markers. Keep oil in it and you're good to go.

They are definitely less efficient and heavier than similarly priced guns on the market today, but then again most spool valve guns are a bit on the heavy side.

I'm not so sure about faster though...you've done the tests...how many markers out there can really cycle faster than a mag with an RT valve? How many places besides your own back yard let you shoot uncapped anyway?

the speed is much more useable. a mciroswitch or optoswitch electro can be walked at 10+ bps with only a half an hours worth of practice, meanwhile, shooting a mech RT gun fast is a dicy propsition in game at best. maybe a pnu-mag, but certainly not a legal RT.

mags are great, cockers are awesome, epics are epic ... but funtionally they simply don't compete with modern guns. its a no brainer for someone who doesn't love the old school guns to get something more modern. these guns are like the "bullet" mustang ... indefiniably cool, but sorry, modern cars are better performing.

[factoid]

its acutally pretty simple.

for less money you can have a gun that is faster, lighter, smaller, more efficient, and does not require tuning.

its a no brainer for someone who isn't into classic guns.

To be fair, you can buy them pre-tuned and they rarely drop out unless you're like us on the forums and tinker endlessly with your markers. Keep oil in it and you're good to go.

Mags are definitely less efficient and heavier than similarly priced guns on the market today, but then again most spool valve guns are a bit on the heavy side. I have no idea how a ULE mag compares weight wise to something like an Ego, but I'm sure it's a boat anchor by comparison. My classic mag is basically a huge hunk of stainless steel... I figure it weighs at least 4 pounds without a tank or loader.

I'm not so sure about faster though...you've done the tests...how many markers out there can really cycle faster than a mag with an RT valve? How many places besides your own back yard let you shoot uncapped anyway? Maybe they really are a lot faster, but if you're limited to 13bps or less (or shooting mechanical) it's nothing to really be concerned about.

Efficiency and weight are the two things I'd love to see AGD address with a new design.

[brycelarson]

I'm not so sure about faster though...you've done the tests...how many markers out there can really cycle faster than a mag with an RT valve? How many places besides your own back yard let you shoot uncapped anyway? Maybe they really are a lot faster, but if you're limited to 13bps or less (or shooting mechanical) it's nothing to really be concerned about.

usefully fast the electros are a better option. yes, RT mags will cycle faster than most modern high end guns - however, since it's mechanical capping them to keep them legal is a problem. On an electro you simply set the ROF cap and hammer as fast as you want. if a field limit is 12 or 13 you can't legally RT on a mag since you'll likely be blowing past that limit.

[leloup]

its acutally pretty simple.

for less money you can have a gun that is faster, lighter, smaller, more efficient, and does not require tuning.

its a no brainer for someone who isn't into classic guns.

My mag is as light as the pm6 I just sold, and I have found that every marker requires tuning of one sort or another, be it messing with board settings, or using shims. As for price, I paid about $250 for a ULE mag with ULT'd X-valve. How is that more expensive than the new stuff today (Savvy shopper )? My brother played with it last time we were out; we talked later, and he said that the only problem he has with it, is that it uses batteries...surprised him when I said it was a mech.