I don't get it...I really dont.

[cockerpunk]

Saying and implying are same same.

i didn't imply it either. if you got that implication then you are incorrect. i only said how much i enjoy playing with pumps and mechs against electros and that you can be very effective with them. i personally have not played with a gun that was made before 2004 in ... damn ... i think 2 years. yeah, newest gun i have played with is a karnivior in 2 years. i take that back, i have played with newer guns, just not owned them.

[OPBN]

but the objective "smaller is better" is still true.

I can guarantee, you will find few women that will agree with this statement.

And it's still subjective my friend.

[cockerpunk]

I can guarantee, you will find few women that will agree with this statement.

And it's still subjective my friend.

compelling argument

if thats all you got

[Frizzle Fry]

belief is subjective.

lighter is faster. F=mA less mass is faster. this is a mathmatical truth in the universe. coservation of energy, less mass requires less work to move ... this is a mathmatical constant in the universe. smaller means less size means smaller to hit ...


the classic example of this argument my thread about "why did we still have vert feed guns?" well, we have vert feed guns because we used to have gravity feeds. well, now most people don't use gravity feeds on there high end guns ... so why are high end guns still vert feed? well, because we have a shooting form that makes vert feed work good enough. ok, but that shooting form is based on the requirement for gravity feed, which we don't have anymore.

instead, paradigm shift. a gun that doesn't have the air and paint on the the gun ... it would require a different form, it would be smaller, lighter, easier to point and aim, faster to get on target ...

And you miss my point entirely... I supposed Nascar drivers all shave their heads and clip their fingernails before a race, right? It's a NEGLIGIBLE WEIGHT DIFFERENCE. I know that between typos and false assertions you like to wax intellectual for a post or two, but please try to stay relevant... Tiny weight and size differences barely effect game play, if at all.

Your vert feed gun theory is flawed, too, but thanks for the self promotion, "professor". We've had forcefed loaders for a decade, and speedball shooting form has been through many radical changes over that time period, from the "mantis" to that goofy British hand-basked grip, without settling in one place for too long. It might have something to do with (gasp) the fact that what is comfortable and effective for one person isn't necessarily comfortable and effective for another, a fact that you apparently are incapable of wrapping your head around. The warpfeed was available with Automag and Angel specific parts and has never really take off, while the woodsball crowd has welcomed the idea of under-fed markers (magazines, warps, qloaders, etc) because it allows them to site down the barrel.

[leloup]

i think you guys are lacking a knowledge in objective vs subjective aspects.

objectivly we can compare kick, consistency, efficiency, sound, pull length and weight, fedneck hieght, weight, size, theoretically we could do relaiably, but that invloves how a player interacts with the gun such as maintinace, cleaning, general treatment .... litterally dozens of factors in a gun. and in most the mag is either on par, or behind a modern gun. objectivly the gun is worse.

"Worse" is a subjective term. And your "objective" arguments are all preference (aside from efficiency and consistency which still can be argued as subjective), not proven superior. I know many players who like kick and weight. I like the sound signature of an unported barrel. Pull length is total preference and so is feed neck height (too short is bad for my sport shot). Not all people like shorter guns, if they did, no one would have purchased a stack tube. Paintball is all about preference and marketing. That is why we label egos as "high end" where as the real performance difference is so tiny over other markers. Marketing also dictates who uses what markers in the pros, so we rec players like to imitate. I'll bet you think Nike shoes are better than other brands because they cost more. But, they wear out just as quick as a new balance.

[cockerpunk]

And you miss my point entirely... I supposed Nascar drivers all shave their heads and clip their fingernails before a race, right? It's a NEGLIGIBLE WEIGHT DIFFERENCE. I know that between typos and false assertions you like to wax intellectual for a post or two, but please try to stay relevant... Tiny weight and size differences barely effect game play, if at all.

Your vert feed gun theory is flawed, too, but thanks for the self promotion, "professor". We've had forcefed loaders for a decade, and speedball shooting form has been through many radical changes over that time period, from the "mantis" to that goofy British hand-basked grip, without settling in one place for too long. It might have something to do with (gasp) the fact that what is comfortable and effective for one person isn't necessarily comfortable and effective for another, a fact that you apparently are incapable of wrapping your head around. The warpfeed was available with Automag and Angel specific parts and has never really take off, while the woodsball crowd has welcomed the idea of under-fed markers (magazines, warps, qloaders, etc) because it allows them to site down the barrel.

see your just not making the conceputal jump i am. the fact that you can't understand the vert feed problem merely double illistrates the point.

im not talking about negligable weight differences. i totally agree 1 oz makes very little difference. but emags are not 1 oz weight difference from ego ten, more like 1.2 pounds difference, which yes, you can feel after a day of play. add to that the weight difference in a 68 compared to a 45 and your talking about serious weight. but what im talking about with stuff like paradigm shifts is again, big drops in weight. if you take the loader adn tank off the gun, the gun total wieghts in at 1.5 pounds, instead of 6-8 pounds ... if that isn't a HUGE difference i don't know what is. that is the difference between revolutionary changes and refining changes.

we have refined paintball equipment down one path so far that we can't see outside of it. we are on (depending on how you count) the 8th generation of the powered hopped loader. so of coruse a 1st generation system like the warpfeed makes no sense at all. systems like qloader are even worse ... they are like the 0th generation of that system. of course they don't compete with an 8th generation refined system like modern super loaders.


you need to take a step back and see the forrest.

[OPBN]

compelling argument

if thats all you got

All that I'm willing to waste on it.

[cockerpunk]

"Worse" is a subjective term. And your "objective" arguments are all preference (aside from efficiency and consistency which still can be argued as subjective), not proven superior. I know many players who like kick and weight. I like the sound signature of an unported barrel. Pull length is total preference and so is feed neck height (too short is bad for my sport shot). Not all people like shorter guns, if they did, no one would have purchased a stack tube. Paintball is all about preference and marketing. That is why we label egos as "high end" where as the real performance difference is so tiny over other markers. Marketing also dictates who uses what markers in the pros, so we rec players like to imitate. I'll bet you think Nike shoes are better than other brands because they cost more. But, they wear out just as quick as a new balance.

i don't think you are reading my posts at all. i spefically mention that i enjoy loud guns. i love heavier guns ...

i bolded all your subjective statments. thats the exact point im making. just becuase someone likes something doesn't make it better in the objective performance. a louder gun is worse in paintball. makes communicating harder, makes moving and shooting stealthy harder ... but i LOVE a loud gun. i am a huge sucker for a loud gun. then again, i just like loud things in general ...

seriously, try reading my posts. its pretty clear your not even reading them.

[Ando]

i didn't imply it either.

Am I going crazy or is what you posted not what I read and what I read is not what you meant?

Get off your box, put your spray can/paper bag down and actually read what you posted or do I seriously need to go through all 3 pages and start quoting you so you can realize what your saying.

[Spider-TW]

Am I going crazy or is what you posted not what I read and what I read is not what you meant?

Get off your box, put your spray can/paper bag down and actually read what you posted or do I seriously need to go through all 3 pages and start quoting you so you can realize what your saying.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

[cockerpunk]

Am I going crazy or is what you posted not what I read and what I read is not what you meant?

Get off your box, put your spray can and paper bag down and read what you've said or do I seriously need to go through all 3 pages and start quoting you so you can realize what your saying.

go for it. i'd love to see where you think i said a mag can't compete or will cuase you to lose.

cause that is news to me. i must be an idiot for playing with my stock class phantom and all those electro guys ... heck, we even play outnumbered pumps vs semis ... thats WAY worse then an automag out there against an ego. thanks for telling me!

your making a fundmamental assumption in my position that simply isn't there.

[Frizzle Fry]

i totally agree 1 oz makes very little difference. but emags are not 1 oz weight difference from ego ten, more like 1.2 pounds difference, which yes, you can feel after a day of play

You'll note that I actually weighed both the Xmag and Ego10 in my posts referencing their weight difference. It's not 1.2lb difference iit's 7.5oz as a stated several times. As for the difference between a 45/45 and a 68/45, that would be relevant if it weren't for the fact that most people use 68/45s... I would go as far as saying that it's a standard.

[Ando]

This is all you talking. I'm not drawing at straws, I didn't put words in your mouth, miss quote you in any way so don't play that card.

mags are great, cockers are awesome, epics are epic ... but funtionally they simply don't compete with modern guns.

these guns are like the "bullet" mustang ... indefiniably cool, but sorry, modern cars are better performing.

are they as good as there modern equalents - heck no. sorry. those are the facts of the case.

i know that when i walk out onto a feild with an automag, cocker, or pump, i am outgunned. so what is all i have to say about that.

a mag is simply not as high performance a gun as even mid level markers these days, ergo, when talking a mag onto a feild of mid and high end guns, you are outgunned. simple as that. they have as good or better technology in there hands then you do ... you are outgunned.

why are you guys apologetics for your equipment? the simple fact is your mag isn't the best, and has not been for closer to 10 years then 5 years.

so what? why is that fact hard to wrap your head around? thats the reason i love to shoot mags, because they are worse guns.

put it this way. i would use the term "outguned" even if we were playing speedball and everyone was capped at 8 bps and i was playing with my emag, and someone else was playing with an ego10. he still has a better gun then me. maybe not faster, certainly not cooler, and probably not even as valuable ... but a better gun.

i don't understand how your not grasping this simple concept. the mid to high level guns of today are FAR supirior in every way compared to even the best guns of early 2000s, including the E/X mag.

its just silly to me. mags, cockers, love them. but i don't love them becuase they are any better then any other gun, i love them because they are worse then every other gun.

I have a life and kids to pick up from school, i'm not quoting everything you've said. If this isn't calling them inferior or can't be competitive then I don't know what is.

EDIT: And I'm not making a "fundmamental" assumption on what your saying...It's there in black and white. BTW...Use spell ck once in a while, trying to figure out what your saying or getting at is giving me a headache and probably where the communication break down is or was that your plan all along

[cockerpunk]

You'll note that I actually weighed both the Xmag and Ego10 in my posts referencing their weight difference. It's not 1.2lb difference iit's 7.5oz as a stated several times. As for the difference between a 45/45 and a 68/45, that would be relevant if it weren't for the fact that most people use 68/45s... I would go as far as saying that it's a standard.

i wouldn't say that at all. i use a 45/45 on all my guns besides automags. 45/45 is the new drop forward

[Frizzle Fry]

I have a life and kids to pick up from school, i'm not quoting everything you've said. If this isn't calling them inferior or can't be competitive then I don't know what is.

I'm off myself, so you'll get no additional quotes from me, but I will say there is no way of talking yourself out of the statement about mags being "worse than every other gun" on the field.


As for the 68/45 versus 45/45 thing, your personal preference is not necessarily the norm. Most people use 68/45s... I'm very sorry for that.