DYE out of business?

[Frizzle Fry]

oh, so he can still be bothered to mill something for his teams, but anyone else gets something from china for their money. and thats the meaning of the new world order...

No it means that he has rough milling done overseas (as does Bob Long and many others) and that the beauty milling for all standard and team guns are done in the US. Team guns cost more because they have additional/different milling, but are available to "everyone else".

[luke]

That's too bad with production going over seas; I estimated that at the time of that article he easily had more than 3m invested in that shop, probably way more than that.

[Frizzle Fry]

That's too bad with production going over seas; I estimated that at the time of that article he easily had more than 3m invested in that shop, probably way more than that.

I agree but I can't fault DYE any more than anyone else who does it, since so much of the industry does these days it would be unfair to single them out. Hell, even Angel went to China for a while and after disastrous results is now UK exclusive again. I'd like to see somebody get a US-parts-and-labor-only marker made that isn't just assembled or polished in the states.

[OPBN]

What I don't understand is why move rough cutting overseas? I would think that this portion of the process would be pretty automated. I can't imagine that it costs that much more to have someone standing and watching a machine here anymore than it would to have someone in China stand and watch the same machine, especially after you figure in shipping. I have a customer in Germany that I was discussing production costs with one time and made the comment that I was surprised so much of the board assembly was still done domestically. His response essentially was that the cost differential between assembly locally and overseas was about the same. So much of it is automated, that they calculated the actual costs and didn't see any substantial savings by moving the produciton offshore. "The machines cost the same here as they do there" was his comment. And then when you figure in the costs and reset time if there is a quality issue, you eat away any potential savings. And when dealing with China, there will be a quality issue. Not if, but when.

[RogueFactor]

I can't imagine that it costs that much more to have someone standing and watching a machine here anymore than it would to have someone in China stand and watch the same machine, especially after you figure in shipping.

It does. The guy in China probably makes at most $5/day. The Union machinist makes 50+ times that per day, not including benefits, pensions, sick days, 401K, etc.

[OPBN]

It does. The guy in China probably makes at most $5/day. The Union machinist makes 50+ times that per day, not including benefits, pensions, sick days, 401K, etc.

That's why you manufacture in non-union states. Even at the costs you give, how many rough bodies can be produced in a day? Can one person run multiple machines? I guess my piont being that at $1600+ per marker, seems to be plenty of room in there to produce stateside, especially if you own the equipment.

[cockerpunk]

oh, so he can still be bothered to mill something for his teams, but anyone else gets something from china for their money. and thats the meaning of the new world order...

no, thats free market economics.

That's too bad with production going over seas; I estimated that at the time of that article he easily had more than 3m invested in that shop, probably way more than that.

*looks over shoulder at 14.5 million dollar machine*

no, probably not

we have cool toys at 3m

[luke]

I agree but I can't fault DYE any more than anyone else who does it, since so much of the industry does these days it would be unfair to single them out. Hell, even Angel went to China for a while and after disastrous results is now UK exclusive again. I'd like to see somebody get a US-parts-and-labor-only marker made that isn't just assembled or polished in the states.

I'm talking about the USA in general, not just DYE, hell last I heard Budwiser sold out too.

[luke]

no, thats free market economics.
*looks over shoulder at 14.5 million dollar machine*
no, probably not
we have cool toys at 3m

Haas machines don't run into that kind of money although they sell some pricy higher end stuff. The average size machine he's running in that shop for paintball items, with all the bells and whistles, would come in on average of $100,000 (rough guess of course)

Not counting tooling and fixtures plus everything else it takes to get the product made and out the door.

[cockerpunk]

Haas machines don't run into that kind of money although they sell some pricy higher end stuff. The average size machine he's running in that shop for paintball items, with all the bells and whistles, would come in on average of $100,000 (rough guess of course)

Not counting tooling and fixtures plus everything else it takes to get the product made and out the door.

our stuff is typically custom, we hardly buy anything off the shelf because we do things that no one else in the world can do. we end up building most of our machines ourselves. raises the price a bit.

[RogueFactor]

Also true. Given the popularity of their markers and soft gear, and the exorbitant prices charged, I assume they aren't broke. I also don't hear of them buying stupid things, or trying to sponsor the whole world of paintball, so I assume they aren't pissing money away either. It could all be going to blackjack and hookers though...

Back in 2007 I walked into a paintball shop where I knew the owner. He had brand new DM4s, DM5s, and DM6s(and of course the new DM7s) on the wall he just received from DYE. DYE still had stock of all years models since inception.

Now that was at the height of the electro-craze. At that time, they had yet to sell out of any years production. Things havent been rosy since 2007, so it would be hard to imagine that sales have gotten better.

Just my $.02.

[saintnoir]

why have rough work done in china,no unions,cheap labor and no osha safety costs
simple example
chinese safety

[CatoRockwell]

Not speaking of China specifically, but honestly whats wrong with doing manufacturing in a foreign country? There are plenty of examples of shoddy quality control in the US just like in any other country. Look at the American Auto industry. It doesn't matter where you do your manufacturing, it matters who is doing your manufacturing. Being made in America isn't inherently better than any other country, unless you're focused on protectionism. I don't see it as selling out if you aren't a protectionist. I buy the highest quality products regardless of what nation they come from.

Back on topic, Dye isn't going anywhere and I think this is a Troll post. They're tactical line seems to be getting rather popular, according to my local sources, the DM isn't going anywhere at least for a few more years. The Rotor is hands down the most popular hopper and the Dye I4's are a popular high quality mask.

I personally prefer my PE Ego11 & my prophecy, I currently use the I4 and I've been very satisfied with it. My only complaint with Dye is their softgoods which quality-wise have slipped in the last few years.

As to DYB. I'm sorry to hear about your experiences. Never met him personally, but as a company DYE has had pretty good customer service. I think Roguefactor was spot on about how in that many legends in paintball have smeared their reputation by being an @$$ at one time or another. I could tell you stories about the times I've met Bob Long & his team, but as long as these companies provide a quality product I will purchase the product on its own merit not on the individual moral merits of it's owner. If I only bought things from people that were never stupid, then I wouldn't have a single option in paintball.

[Frizzle Fry]

Not speaking of China specifically, but honestly whats wrong with doing manufacturing in a foreign country? There are plenty of examples of shoddy quality control in the US just like in any other country. Look at the American Auto industry. It doesn't matter where you do your manufacturing, it matters who is doing your manufacturing. Being made in America isn't inherently better than any other country, unless you're focused on protectionism. I don't see it as selling out if you aren't a protectionist. I buy the highest quality products regardless of what nation they come from.

I think a lot of older players are concerned with keeping jobs stateside, as the last 20 years have seen a country farming out production to the point that many if not most are engaged only in the import and retail of the things they and their fellow citizens buy. So yeah that's protectionism, but it boils down to the fact that $15/hr in a retail store doesn't buy a whole lot of paintball gear or pride. On the other side of things many of the employees of south east asian machine shops work in extremely dangerous conditions for little money with no benefits; it's inhuman to say the least.

Either way, on a consumer level I'm more concerned with the shoddy quality of much of what comes out of that kind of production. I'd love to see how many of the bodies that are rough milled are actually utilized in the production of markers (even then not all those used are up to snuff). It's true, American-made doesn't mean quality but on the one hand there seems to be a greater chance of it being well made (no matter how slight) and on the other you know that it's supporting our economy, providing jobs to our citizens, and providing workers with a safe work environment where they are better rewarded for their labor.

[CatoRockwell]

If we want to support our economy then we better start incentivizing business owners to stay here. Remove regulations & taxes. As someone who has grown up in a family who runs and owns small businesses locally I can say that 99% of the problem comes from our BS trade agreement with our neighbors, which boils down to: We are going to regulate & tax Americans into the grave but we will incentivize our neighbors to have cheap labor. I'm all for saving the American manufacturer, my problem is the people who assume that "made in the USA" somehow implies a superior product, which it doesn't. There's a reason the japanese car manufacturers are running the American one's out of business. And have already done so in electronics. Until we stop subsidizing bad companies like Chrysler, and stop pillaging start up companies, our country is hosed.

It amazes me how backward our solutions to problems are. If a company produces and is smart and successful, we tax and regulate them into the grave. If they are idiotic, make stupid investments, well then, thats the sort of thing we should dump taxdollars in to bail out.

Looks like Ayn Rand was right.