DYE out of business?

[Frizzle Fry]

I'm with you man. NAFTA and our lovely little 2000 trade agreement with China have done more damage to us than anything else in my lifetime. You'll notice a common name signed at the bottom of both. I guess from the perspective of a paintballer it's just a small way to put their money in the hands of US business who produce their product in the US - and obviously they'd want to buy the product that's best made and most suited to their needs, so even if there is a lower quality product out there that was also made in the US it probably isn't the first choice.

[hill160881]

They(China) make everything we buy and use, and they hold most of our debt. Think they set it up that way? Think they read the ART OF WAR? Make no mistake, China is our enemy and they have us right where they want us. How can a country wage a war with THE major super power, with no money, no reserves, no means of production, and no debtors willing to support us in a conflict. Wars are decided by money, and we are trillions in the whole while China has a surplus.

China would clean our slate in a conflict. They have huge reserves in, gold, silver, oil, coal, iron ore............ We have nothing in comparison because we sold our reserves to them. Ya our lovely system allowed a few money hungry people to destroy our ability to defend ourselves, and put every tax payer $100,000 in the whole.

Further more OSHA has destroyed the small workplace, just like the modern union. They once had there purposes but now they just make the work place more expensive to operate. If you saw the list of things they can fine a General contractor for you would laugh. Manufacturing jobs need OSHA but not small home run businesses. Also unions are fighting the wrong people. If they stop asking the companies for more money and put there efforts into changing the political problems causing us to need higher wages(Inflation), then i would support unions.

The only incentive to keep manufacturing here in the US is to pass laws that would make it more expensive to make things anywhere but here. Money talks and we all know what walks. So as long as we have this capitalistic system, the lowest bidder will almost always win. Also we dont have a capitalistic system, those types of systems dont bail out failing businesses. They let them fail and allow the smaller company to advance, (survival of the fittest). I wont even say the type of system we have in practice. The bailouts only served to show us who controls the country, and its not the people. So as long as big business is running the country, they will continue to do what is most profitable for them and screw us in the process.

my 2 cents

[mpsd]

I've been reading your discussion and found it quite interesting and high level. That's one of the reasons I like this forum so much.

Now, just some quick facts:

- Anheuser Busch (Budwiser) was sold in 2009 for a Brazilian group but all the factories and most of the jobs were kept in US
- Over 95% of the products sold in Wal Mart are made in China
- Here in Brazil, an employee costs over twice of what he gets paid for the company. Imagine someone who receives a R$ 10,000.00 salary (I'm speaking of less than 2% of the workforce here - the minimum salary is R$ 545.00). The company has to pay so many taxes, benefits, unions etc that the company will spend something between R$ 19,000.00 and R$ 21,000.00 with that employee. Not only that, the employee will also have to pay so many taxes that in the end of the month, he will only receive R$ 7,000.00 in his bank account.
- At the same time, here in Brazil, one has to pay for his own education, health insurance, security etc because the public services are really, really lame and, trust me, lame is a soft word for what it really is. Also, every product sold here pays AT LEAST 40% of taxes. That's right. 40%. When one buys gasoline to put in his tank, 53% of the cost are taxes. When one buys a car, 48% are taxes. When one buys industrialized food, 40%. And every imported merchandise pays 78% of taxes. 78%!
- There isn't a SINGLE day whithout news of corruption between our local politics, police officers, government companies directors etc. Every day you open the news paper there's a new scandal. Think of that.

So I really wish I was in USA, paying for every penny your government wants for labor and taxes. Not only it's WAY cheaper, you guys actually get what you pay for, meaning you do receive good education in public schools, you do receive good health on your public hospitals (I know they charge you but if you can't pay they will still heal you) and you do have good security on your streets (generally speaking, I know).

[Hook]

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The rest was made in China."

:rofl:

[hill160881]

I've been reading your discussion and found it quite interesting and high level. That's one of the reasons I like this forum so much.

Now, just some quick facts:

- Anheuser Bush (Budwiser) was sold in 2009 for a Brazilian group but all the factories and most of the jobs were kept in US
- Over 95% of the products sold in Wal Mart are made in China
- Here in Brazil, an employee costs over twice of what he gets paid for the company. Imagine someone who receives a R$ 10,000.00 salary (I'm speaking of less than 2% of the workforce here - the minimum salary is R$ 545.00). The company has to pay so many taxes, benefits, unions etc that the company will spend something between R$ 19,000.00 and R$ 21,000.00 with that employee. Not only that, the employee will also have to pay so many taxes that in the end of the month, he will only receive R$ 7,000.00 in his bank account.
- At the same time, here in Brazil, one has to pay for his own education, health insurance, security etc because the public services are really, really lame and, trust me, lame is a soft word for what it really is. Also, every product sold here pays AT LEAST 40% of taxes. That's right. 40%. When one buy gasoline to put in his tank, 53% of the cost are taxes. When one buys a car, 48% are taxes. When one buys industrialized food, 40%. And every imported merchandise pays 78% of taxes. 78%!
- There isn't a SINGLE day whithout news of corruption between our local politics, police officers, government companies directors etc. Every day you open the news paper there's a new scandal. Think of that.

So I really wish I was in USA, paying for every penny your government wants for labor and taxes. Not only it's WAY cheaper, you guys actually get what you pay for, meaning you do receive good education in public schools, you do receive good health on your public hospitals (I know they charge you but if you can't pay they will still heal you) and you do have good security on your streats (generally speaking, I know).

We are pretty spoiled here, its true.

[Old School 626]

It does. The guy in China probably makes at most $5/day. The Union machinist makes 50+ times that per day, not including benefits, pensions, sick days, 401K, etc.

Don't forget the regulatory environment, benefits and taxation.

[cockerpunk]

They(China) make everything we buy and use, and they hold most of our debt. Think they set it up that way? Think they read the ART OF WAR? Make no mistake, China is our enemy and they have us right where they want us. How can a country wage a war with THE major super power, with no money, no reserves, no means of production, and no debtors willing to support us in a conflict. Wars are decided by money, and we are trillions in the whole while China has a surplus.

China would clean our slate in a conflict. They have huge reserves in, gold, silver, oil, coal, iron ore............ We have nothing in comparison because we sold our reserves to them. Ya our lovely system allowed a few money hungry people to destroy our ability to defend ourselves, and put every tax payer $100,000 in the whole.

Further more OSHA has destroyed the small workplace, just like the modern union. They once had there purposes but now they just make the work place more expensive to operate. If you saw the list of things they can fine a General contractor for you would laugh. Manufacturing jobs need OSHA but not small home run businesses. Also unions are fighting the wrong people. If they stop asking the companies for more money and put there efforts into changing the political problems causing us to need higher wages(Inflation), then i would support unions.

The only incentive to keep manufacturing here in the US is to pass laws that would make it more expensive to make things anywhere but here. Money talks and we all know what walks. So as long as we have this capitalistic system, the lowest bidder will almost always win. Also we dont have a capitalistic system, those types of systems dont bail out failing businesses. They let them fail and allow the smaller company to advance, (survival of the fittest). I wont even say the type of system we have in practice. The bailouts only served to show us who controls the country, and its not the people. So as long as big business is running the country, they will continue to do what is most profitable for them and screw us in the process.

my 2 cents

why would you get in a war with someone you are making so much money off of?

art of war? more like good business sense.

[hill160881]

what money? We owe them trillions.

[CatoRockwell]

I'm all in favor of a complete free market, NO social services, period. NO regulations by government. Let the free market of employees decide which business to work for based off of who offers the best benefits. Companies that offer better benefits will attract higher quality employees.

That said, a war with China isn't so simple, they may be the largest manufacturer, but we are still the largest Food exporter on the planet, especially Meat.

I disagree about OSHA, it shouldn't exist. Let the free market determine workplace conditions, if there is a manufacturer that doesn't take care of its employees, inevitably a competitor will arise that does.

[mpsd]

I'm all in favor of a complete free market, NO social services, period. NO regulations by government. Let the free market of employees decide which business to work for based off of who offers the best benefits. Companies that offer better benefits will attract higher quality employees..

That's kinda anarchist, I think. And it may lead to newer, bigger problems.

That said, a war with China isn't so simple, they may be the largest manufacturer, but we are still the largest Food exporter on the planet, especially Meat. .

I think Brazil is ahead of USA when it comes to food production and exports.

I disagree about OSHA, it shouldn't exist. Let the free market determine workplace conditions, if there is a manufacturer that doesn't take care of its employees, inevitably a competitor will arise that does.

Remember that every country have uneducated people who will work for less than nothing.

[OPBN]

While it may seem like everything is made in China, I am pretty sure that the U.S. is still the worlds largest manufacturere. I didnt think it was estimated that China would actually surpass us until 2016-2017....

[Frizzle Fry]

While it may seem like everything is made in China, I am pretty sure that the U.S. is still the worlds largest manufacturere. I didnt think it was estimated that China would actually surpass us until 2016-2017....

2012, and they're not far behind now. As of two years ago the estimation was 2020 and a few years before that it was 2030. Before 2000 there was no concern at all. The issue is that Chinese consumers aren't buying what they make OR what we make (gee Mr. Prez, I thought you promised they would) and the rate at which production has grown there.

Stateside, companies like WalMart sell mostly cheap chinese products to US citizens who can't afford better, all the while signing lucrative contracts with small(er) US businesses until they get almost exclusive production rights, then, a year later, offering the pennies on the dollar to said business knowing they'll have to take it because they've lost their presence on the market and can't survive at all without them. At that point either the company folds or starts outsourcing. Voila, now you've got a company full of broke guys looking for cheap clothes and food. WalMart is invested in keeping people poor - that's their market - and their means is cheap chinese production. It really is a war.

[Daze]

what money? We owe them trillions.

We owe the Chinese less than one trillion dollars.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt

We owe foreign nations, as a group, around 30% of the national debt. The rest is held in the country.

If I'm not mistaken, the amount owed per citizen is closer to 50,000 than 100,000.

He was asking why China would go to war with us if we owe them so much money. You can't get money from someone you kill. It's why bookies only break bones.

[cockerpunk]

We owe the Chinese less than one trillion dollars.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt

We owe foreign nations, as a group, around 30% of the national debt. The rest is held in the country.

If I'm not mistaken, the amount owed per citizen is closer to 50,000 than 100,000.

He was asking why China would go to war with us if we owe them so much money. You can't get money from someone you kill. It's why bookies only break bones.

shhhhhhhh, no facts and fear mongering is way more fun then reality.


the free market obession is also very dangerious. i have no problems with the free market, but the free market cares about one thing and one things only - profit. the issue with the free market religion is that poeple mistake profit, for morally just. the free market doesn't care about morals, it doesn't care about right or wrong, it cares about profit. slavery? fine. poeple dying in workplaces? fine. child labor? fine. environemental polution? fine.

these are all things that cut into profits heavily, and it all things that we pay for every single day when we buy goods.

i for one and perfectly fine with that. i'd rather live in a nicer town, with clean water, good air, and where children get educations rather then have to work, even if im poorer for it. being the richest man in a garbage dump is not an appealing position for me.

[OPBN]

And the Chinese people are beginning to ask for higher wages and better working conditions. Even now, manufacturing costs in the coastal cities are beginning to rise, so factories are having to move farther and farther inland. This in turn is diminishing the cost savings as transportation costs rise. From my understanding, at some point the labor begins to be less and less of a factor as more of the per unit cost is taken up by fixed raw materials costs. China is actually starting to lose more and more manufacturing to places like Indonesia and Vietnam.