DYE out of business?

[hill160881]

We owe the Chinese less than one trillion dollars.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt

We owe foreign nations, as a group, around 30% of the national debt. The rest is held in the country.

If I'm not mistaken, the amount owed per citizen is closer to 50,000 than 100,000.

He was asking why China would go to war with us if we owe them so much money. You can't get money from someone you kill. It's why bookies only break bones.

Wait, did not China over the last three years loan us over a trillion for our bailouts? I dont trust that the government is totally honest with its books. They tell us what will upset us the least, and what melds with all there other lies.


And its $100,000 per tax payer since 1/2 the country does not pay into the system. I dont count the ones that dont help pay the bills.

We(the USA) dont repay our debts, we just shift them around. How long have we been running in the hole? Up to like 12 trillion now. Has that number been Zero in anyones lifetime.

My point is that China is in the best position with money in the bank and we are in the whole.

[murdercrow]

This is a very interesting discussion. No really.
But is that Kristin Kreutz?!

[leloup]

shhhhhhhh, no facts and fear mongering is way more fun then reality.


the free market obession is also very dangerious. i have no problems with the free market, but the free market cares about one thing and one things only - profit. the issue with the free market religion is that poeple mistake profit, for morally just. the free market doesn't care about morals, it doesn't care about right or wrong, it cares about profit. slavery? fine. poeple dying in workplaces? fine. child labor? fine. environemental polution? fine.

these are all things that cut into profits heavily, and it all things that we pay for every single day when we buy goods.

i for one and perfectly fine with that. i'd rather live in a nicer town, with clean water, good air, and where children get educations rather then have to work, even if im poorer for it. being the richest man in a garbage dump is not an appealing position for me.

You are a little incorrect. The free market, of which the US is the closest example doesn't have people dying in workplaces, child labor, and environmental pollution with out heavy government recourse. China may have those things, but are far from anything resembling a free market. Profit does care about morals (since we are personifying a thing that doesn't think, feel, etc.) If your customers will not buy a product because of manufacturing methods (happened many times in the past), you don't make money. Profit adjusts to the societies views and morality.

[sjrtk]

Well the way things look, it took the US approx, 60 years (industrial revolution forward roughly 1900 give or take) to become the manufacturing King of the world, then 30 years (from now back) to lose all of our ability to REALLY compete with the global market. So that is a basic 90 year cycle for our rise and fall. China has rocketed up in the world market since Approx 1972-3 (?). so in 30 years they rocketed to to top, are now realizing what skilled labor cost and are starting to dump it on lower paying groups. Sounds familiar doesn't it? Remember prior to China WE held the bulk of European countries in debt, Trillions of dollars in debt. Yes alot of that was rebuilding after WW2, and war material. But it was OUR industry that supplied them with what was needed to rebuild. We have set our selves up for it now we have to pay the piper and don't like it. But this is something that WILL hit every one and every thing. The faster the rise the harder the fall. We just got an extra kick in the crotch to go with it.

So stop strangling business, either by the Unions, Taxation, wasteful spending, and ridiculous/absurd EPA regulations. I.E. 2 Texas oil refinery will not have there certifications renewed due to noncompliance with EPA regulations that did not exist when they were built and are licensed for 5 more years. Or the refineries in PA and NJ who will be just shut down by the EPA because they are to close to the river (makes it easier to ship the prduct to the rest of the county when your refinery is also a shipping port).

[Daze]

Wait, did not China over the last three years loan us over a trillion for our bailouts? I dont trust that the government is totally honest with its books. They tell us what will upset us the least, and what melds with all there other lies.

I would like to see that referenced somewhere. While I'm sure some dancing is done with money, I don't think they could hide triple the amount of debt they're showing. If we can't believe the published documents to some extent, everything dissolves into conspiracy theories and rumors.

[dahoeb]

Well the way things look, it took the US approx, 60 years (industrial revolution forward roughly 1900 give or take) to become the manufacturing King of the world, then 30 years (from now back) to lose all of our ability to REALLY compete with the global market. So that is a basic 90 year cycle for our rise and fall. China has rocketed up in the world market since Approx 1972-3 (?). so in 30 years they rocketed to to top, are now realizing what skilled labor cost and are starting to dump it on lower paying groups. Sounds familiar doesn't it? Remember prior to China WE held the bulk of European countries in debt, Trillions of dollars in debt. Yes alot of that was rebuilding after WW2, and war material. But it was OUR industry that supplied them with what was needed to rebuild. We have set our selves up for it now we have to pay the piper and don't like it. But this is something that WILL hit every one and every thing. The faster the rise the harder the fall. We just got an extra kick in the crotch to go with it.

So stop strangling business, either by the Unions, Taxation, wasteful spending, and ridiculous/absurd EPA regulations. I.E. 2 Texas oil refinery will not have there certifications renewed due to noncompliance with EPA regulations that did not exist when they were built and are licensed for 5 more years. Or the refineries in PA and NJ who will be just shut down by the EPA because they are to close to the river (makes it easier to ship the prduct to the rest of the county when your refinery is also a shipping port).

you make good points and I agree with you 100%. But something to keep in mind is that China still has approximately 21 million in poverty and 30 million that are just above the poverty line. Plus they have 1+ billion people that have to be supported. Their economy may surpass ours but the weight of their population will continue to be a liability for them.

[sjrtk]

you make good points and I agree with you 100%. But something to keep in mind is that China still has approximately 21 million in poverty and 30 million that are just above the poverty line. Plus they have 1+ billion people that have to be supported. Their economy may surpass ours but the weight of their population will continue to be a liability for them.

Thats why i am looking at there rocket to the top like i am. They have to export the labor (like we did) faster to try to keep up with the burden of there population. Either way it will be brutal when they tank, after they'll give the facade of success for as long as they can.

[CatoRockwell]

That's kinda anarchist, I think. And it may lead to newer, bigger problems.



I think Brazil is ahead of USA when it comes to food production and exports.



Remember that every country have uneducated people who will work for less than nothing.

Exactly I'm an Anarcho-Capitalist. The United States is still the largest exporter of Meat in the world. I don't mind if people are willing to work for less than nothing, that is their individual choice.

There will always be social/economic problems, this world cannot be perfect. However, I choose to live in an imperfect world where my individual sovereignty isn't violated rather than a collectivist world where bureaucrats tell me how I should run my business and limit my potential.

Government doesn't exist to wipe our chins and tell us what to do with our liberties, it exists to safeguard those liberties nothing more. Despite what many wish to believe this is a growing sentiment in the USA & other parts of the world where we get to see just how effective the Nanny state isn't.

[dahoeb]

Exactly I'm an Anarcho-Capitalist. The United States is still the largest exporter of Meat in the world. I don't mind if people are willing to work for less than nothing, that is their individual choice.

There will always be social/economic problems, this world cannot be perfect. However, I choose to live in an imperfect world where my individual sovereignty isn't violated rather than a collectivist world where bureaucrats tell me how I should run my business and limit my potential.

Government doesn't exist to wipe our chins and tell us what to do with our liberties, it exists to safeguard those liberties nothing more. Despite what many wish to believe this is a growing sentiment in the USA & other parts of the world where we get to see just how effective the Nanny state isn't.

Well said buddy.

[cockerpunk]

You are a little incorrect. The free market, of which the US is the closest example doesn't have people dying in workplaces, child labor, and environmental pollution with out heavy government recourse. China may have those things, but are far from anything resembling a free market. Profit does care about morals (since we are personifying a thing that doesn't think, feel, etc.) If your customers will not buy a product because of manufacturing methods (happened many times in the past), you don't make money. Profit adjusts to the societies views and morality.

right, we regulate the free market, and that is why we don't have those bad things. the free market as a whole however, does not have any problems with those things. thus the need for regulation. i am in favor of that.

centrally planed economies like china was (they are free market in principal right now), is also nutoriously bad at these things as well, look at CCCP ...

[dahoeb]

right, we regulate the free market, and that is why we don't have those bad things. the free market as a whole however, does not have any problems with those things. thus the need for regulation. i am in favor of that.

centrally planed economies like china was (they are free market in principal right now), is also nutoriously bad at these things as well, look at CCCP ...

Yes, child labor, etc., slavery is bad. . I'm still waiting to see the people that advocate it's return. All anyone wants is a free market that can expand and thrive within just laws. Some regulation is good. But many regulations today are used more to push a political agenda or to justify an obsolete department's (the FCC for one) existence, rather than to correct a real and serious problem.

[halB]

right, we regulate the free market, and that is why we don't have those bad things. the free market as a whole however, does not have any problems with those things. thus the need for regulation. i am in favor of that.

centrally planed economies like china was (they are free market in principal right now), is also nutoriously bad at these things as well, look at CCCP ...

HEY! Centrally planned economies can't be all bad. Russia was the only country to actually expand their GDP during the Great Depression...


//because it's really easy to expand from 0 to .02.
///because they had never built tractors before and there was a market for tractors.

[halB]

Yes, child labor, etc., slavery is bad. . I'm still waiting to see the people that advocate it's return. All anyone wants is a free market that can expand and thrive within just laws. Some regulation is good. But many regulations today are used more to push a political agenda or to justify an obsolete department's (the FCC for one) existence, rather than to correct a real and serious problem.

FOCUS buddy. You're all over the place. Let's just list some bull regulations that everyone can agree need to be repealed.

For instance, did you know that US businessmen cannot bribe foreign officials in foreign countries? That's ridiculous. A lot of foreign countries run on bribes.

Did you also know that France is perhaps the most competitive nation for international trade?

[cockerpunk]

Yes, child labor, etc., slavery is bad. . I'm still waiting to see the people that advocate it's return. All anyone wants is a free market that can expand and thrive within just laws. Some regulation is good. But many regulations today are used more to push a political agenda or to justify an obsolete department's (the FCC for one) existence, rather than to correct a real and serious problem.

just laws, yeah, exactly.

my posts were in opposition to the "free market should control all" religion-like posts here. its pretty obvious we agree.

[dahoeb]

FOCUS buddy. You're all over the place. Let's just list some bull regulations that everyone can agree need to be repealed.

For instance, did you know that US businessmen cannot bribe foreign officials in foreign countries? That's ridiculous. A lot of foreign countries run on bribes.

Did you also know that France is perhaps the most competitive nation for international trade?

Congratulations, "buddy", you can actually find laws and rules that make sense, pm me your address and I'll send you a cookie. Or better, you should rattle off some other laws that are good, like the laws against rape and murder or even child abuse.

Anyways, please show me where I'm "all over the place". I simply stated that there is such a thing as EXCESSIVE REGULATION. I guess you disagree with that? In fact, I even said that SOME laws and regs are good. But when you start getting "excessive" laws and regs, like ridiculous "luxury" taxes on things like cars which cost over 25g, like in California, you'll see a net business loss over a 5 year period in that state (since 05'), even at times when most states show positive growth. In fact, most of those businesses aren't going bankrupt or shutting down, most of them are simply leaving, many going to Texas, Colorado and Az. (85 businesses moved out in the first 6 months of 2010 alone)

And using France as an example of ANYTHING to be striven for is just an insult. When was the last France mattered in anything. I'm not suprised at all that they're doing well with international trade, they're the same "allies" who were "trading" NVG's to Iraq before our invasion, and they're the same "allies" "trading" warships to our other "friends" in Russia.