It's funny Dye got ripped off at IAO

[cledford]

Funny, I think some of the posters in this thread weighed in differently when the issue was WGP moving the production of their guns to Taiwan.

I understand that we can't know for *certain* that either child or prison labor is used specifically in Dave's products - but let's be realistic here, it ain't cheaper to produce something half the world away and ship it here for no reason at all. Even if kids aren't specifically being exploited in the manufacture of HIS goods (although we do know for sure that they are a significant portion of the time to produce other merchandise made in China) there is still *someone* being exploited - what difference does it make if a kid or the poor smuck trying to feed a couple of children for pennies an hour is being used? Quite frankly, the real issue is that that regardless of *who* is being exploited the real losers are American's who had to watch those jobs "sail away" so that a guy who was already richer then 99.99 of the rest of us could make EVEN more money. Let's face it, no one is out to screw someone out of an honest buck - but are you telling me that DY, Bud Orr, or "Red" couldn't have kept the jobs here, still gotten rich and been associated with a GAME for their living? They might not have gotten AS rich, but they'd still be there - this is a question of selling out that we're dealing with. These people have jobs that anyone would be envious of, they are working in an industry they love, and making a ton of cash. Why do they need 2 "tons of cash" at the expense of the labor in both US and China?

-Calvin

[shartley]

Originally posted by cledford
Funny, I think some of the posters in this thread weighed in differently when the issue was WGP moving the production of their guns to Taiwan.

I understand that we can't know for *certain* that either child or prison labor is used specifically in Dave's products - but let's be realistic here, it ain't cheaper to produce something half the world away and ship it here for no reason at all. Even if kids aren't specifically being exploited in the manufacture of HIS goods (although we do know for sure that they are a significant portion of the time to produce other merchandise made in China) there is still *someone* being exploited - what difference does it make if a kid or the poor smuck trying to feed a couple of children for pennies an hour is being used? Quite frankly, the real issue is that that regardless of *who* is being exploited the real losers are American's who had to watch those jobs "sail away" so that a guy who was already richer then 99.99 of the rest of us could make EVEN more money. Let's face it, no one is out to screw someone out of an honest buck - but are you telling me that DY, Bud Orr, or "Red" couldn't have kept the jobs here, still gotten rich and been associated with a GAME for their living? They might not have gotten AS rich, but they'd still be there - this is a question of selling out that we're dealing with. These people have jobs that anyone would be envious of, they are working in an industry they love, and making a ton of cash. Why do they need 2 "tons of cash" at the expense of the labor in both US and China?

-Calvin

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by shartley

>>French Products and Companies to Boycott:
>>
>>Air France
>>Air Liquide
>>Airbus (airplanes in commericial use)
>>Alcatel
>>Allegra (allergy medication)
>>Aqualung - including: Spirotechnique, Technisub, US
Divers and SeaQuest
>>AXA Advisors
>>Bank of the West (owned by BNP Paribas)
>>Beneteau (boats)
>>BF Goodrich (owned by Michelin)
>>BIC (razors, pens and lighters)
>>Biotherm (cosmetics
>>Black Bush
>>Bollinger (champagne)
>>Car & Driver Magazine
>>Cartier
>>Chanel
>>Chivas Regal (scotch)
>>Christian Dior
>>Club Med (vacations)
>>Culligan (owned by Vivendi)
>>Dannon (yogurt and dairy foods)
>>DKNY
>>Dom Perigonon (champagne)
>>Durand Crystal
>>Elle Magazine
>>Essilor Optical Products
>>Evian
>>Fina (petroleum products) and Fina Oil (billions
invested in Iraqi oil fields)
>>First Hawaiian Bank
>>George Magazine
>>Givenchy
>>Glenlivet (scotch)
>>Hennessy (liquor products)
>>Houghton Mifflin (books)
>>Jacobs Creek (owned by Pernod Ricard since 1989)
>>Jameson (whiskey)
>>Jerry Springer (talk show)
>>Krups (coffee and cappuccino makers)
>>Lancome - Le Creuset (cookware)
>>L'Oreal (health and beauty products)
>>Louis Vuitton
>>Marie Claire
>>Martel Cognac
>>Maybelline
>>Mephisto (shoes & clothes)
>>Michelin (tires & auto parts)
>>Mikasa (crystal and glass)
>>Moet (champagne)
>>Motel 6
>>Motown Records
>>MP3.com
>>Mumms (champagne)
>>Nissan (cars - majority owned by
>>Renault
>>Nivea
>>Normany Butter
>>Parents Magazine
>>Peugeot (automobiles)
>>Pierre Cardin
>>Playstation Magazine
>>ProScan (owned by Thomson Electronics - France)
>>Publicis Group (including Saatchi & Saatachi
Advertising)
>>RCA (television & electronics - owned by Thomson
Electronics - France)
>>Red Magazine
>>Red Roof Inns (owned by Accor group in France)
>>Renault (automobiles)
>>Roquefort cheese (all Roquefort cheese is made in
France)
>>Rowenta (toasters, irons, coffe makers,
>>Royal Canadian
>>Salomon (skis)
>>Sierra Software & Computer Games
>>Smart & Final
>>Sofitel (hotels, owned by Accor group)
>>Sparkletts (water, owned by Danone)
>>Spencer Gifts.
>>Sundance Channel
>>Taylor Made (gold clubs & equipment)
>>Technicolor
>>T-Fal (kitchenware
>>Total Gas Stations
>>UbiSoft (computer games)
>>Uniroyal (tires)
>>Universal Studios (music, movies and amusement parks
- owned by Vivendi
>>US Filter
>>Veritas Group
>>Veuve Clicquot Champagne
>>Vittel
>>Vivendi
>>Wild Turkey (bourbon)
>>Woman's Day Magazine
>>Yoplait (The French company Sodiaal owns a 50%
stake)
>>Yves Saint Laurent
>>Zodia Inflatable Boats

[shartley]

Originally posted by Albinonewt



>>French Products and Companies to Boycott:
>>
>>Air France
>>Air Liquide
>>Airbus (airplanes in commericial use)
>>Alcatel
>>Allegra (allergy medication)
>>Aqualung - including: Spirotechnique, Technisub, US
Divers and SeaQuest
>>AXA Advisors
>>Bank of the West (owned by BNP Paribas)
>>Beneteau (boats)
>>BF Goodrich (owned by Michelin)
>>BIC (razors, pens and lighters)
>>Biotherm (cosmetics
>>Black Bush
>>Bollinger (champagne)
>>Car & Driver Magazine
>>Cartier
>>Chanel
>>Chivas Regal (scotch)
>>Christian Dior
>>Club Med (vacations)
>>Culligan (owned by Vivendi)
>>Dannon (yogurt and dairy foods)
>>DKNY
>>Dom Perigonon (champagne)
>>Durand Crystal
>>Elle Magazine
>>Essilor Optical Products
>>Evian
>>Fina (petroleum products) and Fina Oil (billions
invested in Iraqi oil fields)
>>First Hawaiian Bank
>>George Magazine
>>Givenchy
>>Glenlivet (scotch)
>>Hennessy (liquor products)
>>Houghton Mifflin (books)
>>Jacobs Creek (owned by Pernod Ricard since 1989)
>>Jameson (whiskey)
>>Jerry Springer (talk show)
>>Krups (coffee and cappuccino makers)
>>Lancome - Le Creuset (cookware)
>>L'Oreal (health and beauty products)
>>Louis Vuitton
>>Marie Claire
>>Martel Cognac
>>Maybelline
>>Mephisto (shoes & clothes)
>>Michelin (tires & auto parts)
>>Mikasa (crystal and glass)
>>Moet (champagne)
>>Motel 6
>>Motown Records
>>MP3.com
>>Mumms (champagne)
>>Nissan (cars - majority owned by
>>Renault
>>Nivea
>>Normany Butter
>>Parents Magazine
>>Peugeot (automobiles)
>>Pierre Cardin
>>Playstation Magazine
>>ProScan (owned by Thomson Electronics - France)
>>Publicis Group (including Saatchi & Saatachi
Advertising)
>>RCA (television & electronics - owned by Thomson
Electronics - France)
>>Red Magazine
>>Red Roof Inns (owned by Accor group in France)
>>Renault (automobiles)
>>Roquefort cheese (all Roquefort cheese is made in
France)
>>Rowenta (toasters, irons, coffe makers,
>>Royal Canadian
>>Salomon (skis)
>>Sierra Software & Computer Games
>>Smart & Final
>>Sofitel (hotels, owned by Accor group)
>>Sparkletts (water, owned by Danone)
>>Spencer Gifts.
>>Sundance Channel
>>Taylor Made (gold clubs & equipment)
>>Technicolor
>>T-Fal (kitchenware
>>Total Gas Stations
>>UbiSoft (computer games)
>>Uniroyal (tires)
>>Universal Studios (music, movies and amusement parks
- owned by Vivendi
>>US Filter
>>Veritas Group
>>Veuve Clicquot Champagne
>>Vittel
>>Vivendi
>>Wild Turkey (bourbon)
>>Woman's Day Magazine
>>Yoplait (The French company Sodiaal owns a 50%
stake)
>>Yves Saint Laurent
>>Zodia Inflatable Boats

LOL Good job finding a list of products/companies and copying it. I was talking about off the street and other such surveys. But I think you knew that.

[Albinonewt]

Shartley makes a good point.

Why even discuss China when there's a whole country devoted to being loathed....

FRANCE

[shartley]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
Shartley makes a good point.

Why even discuss China when there's a whole country devoted to being loathed....

FRANCE

[cledford]

Laws of economics require that jobs exist where the consumer base for said products exist so as to provide the consumer the financial basis for purchasing the goods. The more jobs we loose over-seas the more it impacts our economy. If the difference between being rich and being filthy rich is moving jobs off-shore then I'd suggest that instead of "killing the goose that lays the golden egg" for the quick, bigger buck, that these "business people" cultivate a long-term, healthy market instead. Let's not forget 2 things, paintball is not very high on maslow's hierarchy (therefore would quickly shrivel in the event a large scale economic tragedy) and second economic troubles are like the green-house effect, easy to start, very difficult to stop - since they both become self perpetuating.

Look at it like this, the senior executives who are taking all of these companies broke can be viewed 2 different ways - either as evil, fattening up the goose for slaughter (when the sell their options and get out right before the share prices collapse), or good - because the companies always look great on paper right before they cash in. The question is, regardless does either way of viewing these crooks change the fact that they're running a business that both the employees and share holders have entrusted them with into the ground - so they can make a quick buck and get out? In my book a business person has a responsibility to everyone to not only make money, but to leave the economic environment in BETTER shape then when they started - call it "walk softly in the business world." My point is that DY and others could STILL PROFIT and enjoy their business WITHOUT shipping jobs over-seas, it is when they decide that enough isn't enough and they need more that they begin to choose the path that isn't sustaining to the very market they reap from. It is like failure to crop rotate - they might profit off the "cash crop" in the short term, but things always catch up and they'll eventually pay for not helping to sustain the system that made them successful.

-Calvin

[shartley]

Originally posted by cledford
Laws of economics require that jobs exist where the consumer base for said products exist so as to provide the consumer the financial basis for purchasing the goods. The more jobs we loose over-seas the more it impacts our economy. If the difference between being rich and being filthy rich is moving jobs off-shore then I'd suggest that instead of "killing the goose that lays the golden egg" for the quick, bigger buck, that these "business people" cultivate a long-term, healthy market instead. Let's not forget 2 things, paintball is not very high on maslow's hierarchy (therefore would quickly shrivel in the event a large scale economic tragedy) and second economic troubles are like the green-house effect, easy to start, very difficult to stop - since they both become self perpetuating.

Look at it like this, the senior executives who are taking all of these companies broke can be viewed 2 different ways - either as evil, fattening up the goose for slaughter (when the sell their options and get out right before the share prices collapse), or good - because the companies always look great on paper right before they cash in. The question is, regardless does either way of viewing these crooks change the fact that they're running a business that both the employees and share holders have entrusted them with into the ground - so they can make a quick buck and get out? In my book a business person has a responsibility to everyone to not only make money, but to leave the economic environment in BETTER shape then when they started - call it "walk softly in the business world." My point is that DY and others could STILL PROFIT and enjoy their business WITHOUT shipping jobs over-seas, it is when they decide that enough isn't enough and they need more that they begin to choose the path that isn't sustaining to the very market they reap from. It is like failure to crop rotate - they might profit off the "cash crop" in the short term, but things always catch up and they'll eventually pay for not helping to sustain the system that made them successful.

-Calvin

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by JAM
DYE makes a lot of great products. It is not good for anyone to steal anyhting from anyone else.


These idiots that stole from DYE are the same people that would walk away with your marker at the field. screw them.

Jam is correct!

Since when is a felony "funny"? This incident is nothing but a black eye to the event.

Anyone who thinks thievery is funny is just stupid. It really shows their immaturity and lack of character.

You have a problem with DYE, then say so. Talk about the problem, instead of glamorizing a theft as your main subject.

[Animal Mother]

What are some of the working conditions like?


In 1998, The National Labor Committee observed these working conditions first-hand while investigating 21 factories in China producing some of the most common clothing products sold in the US.



10 to 15 hour shifts per day
60 to 90 hour work weeks
6 and 7 work days a week
below subsistence wages of 13 to 28 cents an hour with no benefits
forced, uncompensated overtime
unsafe and unsanitary working environment
housing in crowded dormitories
24 hour surveillance

http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/sweatshops/china/faq.html

Have any of you ever had to work 15 hours 7 days a week in an unsafe and unsanitary working environment? Theses people do it everyday so companies can make more of a profit.

I do not give a crap if "it's just business and they do it because they need to.", that's great.. wow.. yeah to turn a profit they have to employ slaves. Does that make it right? No.. it does not. It is immoral and if you don't agree that the above conditions that workers have to work in is sick then you have some serious problems. Dye could have all their product made in the USA, but since we employ work ethics and basic human rights Dye would lose part of their profit. That is the ONLY reason they out source to China, because China has no work ethics so they can inslave people and out bid any factory in the U.S. I don't see Dye trying to make ends meet, I actually see them buying other companies, so are they really just trying to keep their business a float or are they making as much of a profit so they can become bigger and better and put all the other companies out of business?

And again.. for the last time.. yes I buy products made in China, sometimes I have no choice, but I at least know where it came from beyond the UPS truck. Many of you... do not. So when something bad happens to any company that out sources to China to make their product so they can make a larger profit, I think they get what they deserve, and like someone else stated.. it's karma.

[UThomas]

My point is that DY and others could STILL PROFIT and enjoy their business WITHOUT shipping jobs over-seas

And you know this how?? You've looked at their books?

is when I started to be self conscience about who I supported with my money.

But you already said you had multiple DYE products. So that makes you either a hypocrit, an enabler, or both.

Thomas

[UThomas]

, but I at least know where it came from beyond the UPS truck. Many of you... do not

Wow, what a moral high ground. You're a hypocrit but at least you are aware of it. So of course you would be very comfortable with us all cheering if your house burned down since you support DYE and other companies that outsource labor.

Do you understand that economically, it is only through capital investment and creation of jobs that the work environment in China or else where will get better? Study some history.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Animal Mother

http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/sweatshops/china/faq.html

Have any of you ever had to work 15 hours 7 days a week in an unsafe and unsanitary working environment? Theses people do it everyday so companies can make more of a profit.

I do not give a crap if "it's just business and they do it because they need to.", that's great.. wow.. yeah to turn a profit they have to employ slaves. Does that make it right? No.. it does not. It is immoral and if you don't agree that the above conditions that workers have to work in is sick then you have some serious problems. Dye could have all their product made in the USA, but since we employ work ethics and basic human rights Dye would lose part of their profit. That is the ONLY reason they out source to China, because China has no work ethics so they can inslave people and out bid any factory in the U.S. I don't see Dye trying to make ends meet, I actually see them buying other companies, so are they really just trying to keep their business a float or are they making as much of a profit so they can become bigger and better and put all the other companies out of business?

And again.. for the last time.. yes I buy products made in China, sometimes I have no choice, but I at least know where it came from beyond the UPS truck. Many of you... do not. So when something bad happens to any company that out sources to China to make their product so they can make a larger profit, I think they get what they deserve, and like someone else stated.. it's karma.

[langrage]

like stated before there is still no proof the DYE uses unfair labor and to assume they do because you found a report from 1998 on 21 "clothing" factories is absurd. What is minimum wage in America $5.15? so your example shows that people are making roughly 18 times less overseas than here. Do you think if we multiplied the cost by 18 that any one would buy the gloves?

America produces billions of tons of resin(plastic pellets used to make things out of plastic) a year. We ship it all over the world. These countries take our resin and manufacture it into commodities and then sell it to America. Why dosent America just keeps the resin and make the products? When we have to pay a worker 5.15 an hour to make a Gi Joe we cant sell them for $4. (I know that gi joes are made by machines but if we employ a hundred machines have we really increased the work force? its an example)

Maybe we should vent our frustrations at governments that allow these practices and not companies. It maybe argued that the companies are not helping by exploiting it but for every container that comes in from overseas there are at least 10 US jobs that benefit from it.

[Animal Mother]

Originally posted by shartley


Seems to me that you think every factory in China is a sweat shop because you saw something or what some report stated about 21 factories.

I saw it first hand and have studied the subject, this is.. how 99% of the factories in China are. Why else would Dye outsource to them?

Originally posted by shartley

And I find it pretty ballsy to make statements like you did. The ONLY reason DYE made the decision to move production to China is because they have slave labor and no work ethics?

Exactly, to make a higher profit. If that was not the case then why does Dye pay the overseas shipping cost? Why not have a factory here in the U.S? Because it's cheaper in China.. and why is it Cheaper? Do your research for that answer.

Originally posted by shartley

Oh come on.. you don't really believe what you are saying do you? Speaking of coal miners.. ever watch insomniac on Comedy Central? he did a tour of one.. they weren't working 12 hours a day 7 days a week for 25 cents. Sure it's a sucky job, but there are laws that protect their human rights. Little to no pay? Ever hear of MINIMUM wage? If they are working and not getting the minimum wage then they are illegally working here in the united states.

Originally posted by shartley

And if you have read any of my posts you would have the answer. I openly admit that I buy Chinese and am aware of how it was made. I alone cannot change things, many people can. The more people that can take that first step and think of how the product they are purchasing was made and the people that made it, then as a whole we can start to change things. Nike is a great example of this. People blindly throw their money at something and don't think of how it got there. I never said I wanted to boycott Dye or any company that out sources to China, I have said this many times. What I am saying is to be aware of the working conditions of the people that made your gear. People thought it was sooo sad that Dye got ripped off.. no.. it was not, because I know what kind of company Dye is. If Dye was a better company.. then I would have felt sorry, I would buy ALL my products made by Dye, but when the very product they had children made gets stolen from them.. I cannot feel sorry for them. That was my point all along. I never asked anyone to protest Dye, you'll never find me with a bunch of unbathed hippies protesting anything. But when I am faced by two products from different companies.. I wanna know where that product came from so it can be part of my decision to buy it.