Tac_One, AGD isn't Fooling Around Any More>>

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by Kevmaster
Im still leaning on this hurting AGD in the long run:

Tac-One specs:
X valve
custom milled slug body vert. feed
Intelliframe with rubber grips
J&J cocker barrel
ULT trigger
LvL 10
Flat black only

ok, so Tom took off the ULT Trigger.

RT Specs:
X Valve
SS Body
I-Frame
AGD Barrel
Lvl 10
Stainless and Black Color

ITS "WORSE" than the Tac-One. The Tac-One is BETTER!!

um... the new RT is coming with a ule body so it's basically the same. The tac-one is a hardcore scenario marker and the rt is a tourney grade mech. IMO, it wont' hurt anything if they are similarly priced. By that I mean that AGD sells the rtp to the dealers at dealer prices, the dealers sell for the same price as AGD sells the tac-one. That simple.

[bryceeden]

Originally posted by FooTemps


um... the new RT is coming with a ule body so it's basically the same. The tac-one is a hardcore scenario marker and the rt is a tourney grade mech. IMO, it wont' hurt anything if they are similarly priced. By that I mean that AGD sells the rtp to the dealers at dealer prices, the dealers sell for the same price as AGD sells the tac-one. That simple.

But its not that simple, because the RTP isn't going to lower its price that much, the tac-one is a lowball below wholesale price. I didn't think about future RTP sales untill Kevmaster pointed it out, but I can definatly see his point. I don't know what AGD can do, but I think this could be a deathblow to the RTP, and be very bad for distributers in the not-so-long run. I am starting to think the $400-$450 should be $450-$550 just to be safe for everyone and everything.

[Lohman446]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=112265

Please god, let that link work.. if it can't please someone teach me how the hell to use one of these boxes with the bright screen thing and all the keys.

Ok... so how are dealers going to cope with it.. and I think I posted a link to a thread started just for that question... I think I did at least

[Big_M]

Originally posted by manike

I think I'll ditto that

[Kevmaster]

Originally posted by FooTemps


um... the new RT is coming with a ule body so it's basically the same. The tac-one is a hardcore scenario marker and the rt is a tourney grade mech. IMO, it wont' hurt anything if they are similarly priced. By that I mean that AGD sells the rtp to the dealers at dealer prices, the dealers sell for the same price as AGD sells the tac-one. That simple.

thats the thing, im not going to share dealer prices, but at $450, thats BELOW dealer cost for the RTP. Even if they ARE equal (when they come with ULE bodies) dealers will still have to take a LOSS to sell the RTP at the same price as the tac-one. I certainly would not stand for that if i were an active dealer and would cease pushing mags. Id close up shop in terms of Mags.

and Lohman, AGD doesnt want to sell all the markers themselves. Its too much work to sell factory direct. Theres a reason 95% of comapnys dont do that

[Aegis]

I think the RT Pro needs an update. As the flagship mechanical mag from AGD it seems off target to me. The Tac One is more like it, but personally I would rather have a plain ULE body than the milled rail style.

With the current emphasis on light weight, a marker with a vestigal sight rail and the extra weight of a foregrip rail seems pretty old fashioned. That is why I went aftermarket to get a lightweight mech mag. I think the product line needs a bit of a shakeup to coincide with the release of the Tac One. Give people the opportunity to buy an Intelli/xvalve/ule bodied mag on a ULE rail that is drilled for a front grip.

What are sales like for the RT Pro, anyway? I have yet to see one in a store.

[Lohman446]

Originally posted by Kevmaster


and Lohman, AGD doesnt want to sell all the markers themselves. Its too much work to sell factory direct. Theres a reason 95% of comapnys dont do that

Why?

My question - now first, flesh and blood dealers offer something that is well worht the markup they take on the sale. They offer expertise, warranty without sending in for minor repairs (o-rings type things), and immediate availability - as well as many other things.

However, the dealer system is based on an outdated system where such things as the internet, chat forum advice, and second day shipping were not available. Why do online dealers undercut brick and mortar dealers? Because it does not take as much work to sell on line as it does in purpose, not as much space, not as many employees, and not as much overhead.

I am not questioning any of the dealers abilities, nor their right to make a living selling markers. However, the thread I started devoted to dealers on this seems to indicate that selling a marker is not an overly profitable aspect of the business.

All I am leaning towards, is if AGD is going to sell one, why not all directly at the reduced prices? Prices are going to have to come down on the mechanical mags to compete with low end electros - because not everyone is willing to pay for the quality.

[Kevmaster]

Originally posted by Lohman446


Why?

My question - now first, flesh and blood dealers offer something that is well worht the markup they take on the sale. They offer expertise, warranty without sending in for minor repairs (o-rings type things), and immediate availability - as well as many other things.

However, the dealer system is based on an outdated system where such things as the internet, chat forum advice, and second day shipping were not available. Why do online dealers undercut brick and mortar dealers? Because it does not take as much work to sell on line as it does in purpose, not as much space, not as many employees, and not as much overhead.

I am not questioning any of the dealers abilities, nor their right to make a living selling markers. However, the thread I started devoted to dealers on this seems to indicate that selling a marker is not an overly profitable aspect of the business.

All I am leaning towards, is if AGD is going to sell one, why not all directly at the reduced prices? Prices are going to have to come down on the mechanical mags to compete with low end electros - because not everyone is willing to pay for the quality.

they ARE cutting prices on sales, yes, BUT wal-marts are still doing business. Simply because
1) people dont wnat to wait two days! They want it in 2 hours. They wont wait for shipping to get there when they needed it yesterday

2) not everyone has the internet. Not everyone has a credit card. Thus, not everyone can get something from AGD (loacted in Illinois) when they live in say California, or even Ohio!

moreover, what incentive do I have, as a dealer, to sell AGD product when AGD is taking sales from me? I could be pushing 2-3 markers per month from AGD, but when they 'streamline' they take those sales away from me. Sure, I might get a couple back for repairs, and sure a couple might buy upgrades, but AGD will lower prices on those to stay in line with their markers (why buy a $325 RT Valve when a RT Pro costs $400?) and yet again kill me as a dealer. What will I do? Stop selling AGD, start selling NPS, WGP, WDP, anyone who will stay out of direct sales at below MSRP and protect their dealers.

its simply not plausable for a paintball proshop to exist without selling markers. Sure, the consumer will get his marker cheaper, but stores will close up shop when everyone does this and offers dealers NO price below their MSRP.

[cledford]

Originally posted by Kevmaster


moreover, what incentive do I have, as a dealer, to sell AGD product when AGD is taking sales from me? I could be pushing 2-3 markers per month from AGD, but when they 'streamline' they take those sales away from me. Sure, I might get a couple back for repairs, and sure a couple might buy upgrades, but AGD will lower prices on those to stay in line with their markers (why buy a $325 RT Valve when a RT Pro costs $400?) and yet again kill me as a dealer. What will I do? Stop selling AGD, start selling NPS, WGP, WDP, anyone who will stay out of direct sales at below MSRP and protect their dealers.

its simply not plausable for a paintball proshop to exist without selling markers. Sure, the consumer will get his marker cheaper, but stores will close up shop when everyone does this and offers dealers NO price below their MSRP.

Kevin,

Your statements may or may not be true. Frankly, cockers used to go for dirt cheap - because shops knew that they would get the same amount of profit and more over the FULL RETAIL value of the marker in additonal parts, upgrades, and repair sales. The same is true with the Tippmann stuff - the shops can't shove them out the door fast enough because of all of the return sales. I see at my retailer an A5 cost exactly the same as it would go for online - for the simple reason that they'll sell a ton more crap for it and make profit that way.

Think about your classic speed shop. They don't sell cars, but they sure as heck stay in business selling parts, and upgrades for them.

What AGD needs is a more fully developed array of parts and do-dads to add onto the gun once it's sold - like the GTA stuff. If that stuff was available then the dealers wouldn't care. Every SINGLE time I visit RobAGD at Pevs at least 2 Tippmanns walk out the door while I'm there. This inevitably leads to a mask, a pack, a couple of upgrades, (usually an RT trigger), and Paint going out the door at the same time along with the marker. My point is that the marker (especially in the lower end market) is the vehicle for other and future sales - not necessarily the single point of profit. For the Tac1 to become the darling that the A5 is it has to be able to make the dealers money, repeatedly. If that exists then I don't think that they will begrudge the already razor thin margin on the marker it's self.

-Calvin

[bryceeden]

Originally posted by cledford


Kevin,

Your statements may or may not be true. Frankly, cockers used to go for dirt cheap - because shops knew that they would get the same amount of profit and more over the FULL RETAIL value of the marker in additonal parts, upgrades, and repair sales. The same is true with the Tippmann stuff - the shops can't shove them out the door fast enough because of all of the return sales. I see at my retailer an A5 cost exactly the same as it would go for online - for the simple reason that they'll sell a ton more crap for it and make profit that way.

Think about your classic speed shop. They don't sell cars, but they sure as heck stay in business selling parts, and upgrades for them.

What AGD needs is a more fully developed array of parts and do-dads to add onto the gun once it's sold - like the GTA stuff. If that stuff was available then the dealers wouldn't care. Every SINGLE time I visit RobAGD at Pevs at least 2 Tippmanns walk out the door while I'm there. This inevitably leads to a mask, a pack, a couple of upgrades, (usually an RT trigger), and Paint going out the door at the same time along with the marker. My point is that the marker (especially in the lower end market) is the vehicle for other and future sales - not necessarily the single point of profit. For the Tac1 to become the darling that the A5 is it has to be able to make the dealers money, repeatedly. If that exists then I don't think that they will begrudge the already razor thin margin on the marker it's self.

-Calvin

If people buy the marker online they will buy everything else online unless its an emergancy. Tippmanns and Cockers now have a Minimum Advertised Price, which means everyone local and internet dealers have to sell them for at least that much, I personaly wish every paintball company would do this because it makes life so much better for us shop owners. Back to the subject, the tac-one at $450 makes the RTP, whose lowest price I've seen is about $550, seem like a rip off. If the prices were similar like $500 for the tac-one and $550 for the rtp it wouldn't be a problem, and AGD could sell the tac-one to dealers for around $450 and everything would be fine, but I think cutting the dealers out is a bad move. For me atleast a $50 markup on a marker is pretty good, and I would have no problems. And a $50 difference wouldn't really hurt the RTP much. Just my opinion.

[cledford]

Originally posted by bryceeden
Back to the subject, the tac-one at $450 makes the RTP, whose lowest price I've seen is about $550, seem like a rip off.

This brings up a great point. The Tac1 is going to be heavier then the RTP due to the body. Add some more weight - mill less out of the Intelli (preserve the reason to purchase an Intelli - not get one for "free"), make a solid foregrip. raise it a couple ounces anywhere you can (those scenario guys aren't going to car as long as it looks cool -heck they strap about 10 pounds extra on the markers anyhow...) - then shave everything off of the RTP. This will make the 2 lines more distinct and provide benefit for the additional cost for the RTP. Want a kick butt scenario gun? Buy a Tac1. Want a kick butt speedball gun that doesn't require batteries? Buy an RTP. Want a mid range Electro? Buy an Emag. Want a high end Electro? Buy a Xmag.

You get my point. The mags are a little clumped together right now and need distinct personalities of their own. Each with it's own unique advantages. Some people will buy one of each, others will buy all of the parts to build any variation off of one valve - the point is that PEOPLE ARE BUYING.

Heck I say take this even further. Gloss anodized ULE stuff the "Pro line" for "tournament play and fast paced, flashy speedball." The flat black, chunky "high speed gear" is for the "TAC" line. The Electros go into another category. My point is that it is AWESOME that all of the AGD parts (for the most part) are interchangeable - but give them identity as well. Make them distinct - color, weight, and a collection names will do this!

Originally posted by bryceeden
If the prices were similar like $500 for the tac-one and $550 for the rtp it wouldn't be a problem, and AGD could sell the tac-one to dealers for around $450 and everything would be fine, but I think cutting the dealers out is a bad move. For me atleast a $50 markup on a marker is pretty good, and I would have no problems. And a $50 difference wouldn't really hurt the RTP much. Just my opinion.

The problem I see with the Tac1 is it's price point. Yes, I know as well as anyone the quality of AGD product. I also know that such technological development and manufacturing quality costs money - more then the average marker to produce. The issue that it's price $400-500 (based on Tom's last post) puts it squarely back in the very slim (almost empty) mid range that the mag has been stuck in for the last several years. You can buy a competent marker (say a Tippmann) and upgrade the hell out of it and still come in under the base price of a mag. Or, you can buy a upper-range electro gun for what it costs to get a mag fully set up to rip once you add on the upgrades.

I've said many times that I love AGD (the company) and admire Tom. My sincere desire is for the company to return to it's earlier days of glory. I don't know what that will take in today's current environment (especially now that a number of companies including WGP are producing out of the US to cut costs) to get fully on track - but I see a need for either a low cost $250-350 low end marker to stimulate interest in AGD, or a marker aimed at the Impulse range with the Emag performance but some tweaking to make it more tourney friendly. I'm not sure the X is going to do it based on the price tag and although the Tac1 is going to be a hit - I'm concerned about it being an A5 killer at $400. (Remember the A5 with RT and forcefeed hopper retails for ~$300) I know that there is a big difference between the two markers - but that is a hard sell to the kid in the midwest spending his Xmas money.

-Calvin

[RusskiX]

Originally posted by cledford

The mags are a little clumped together right now and need distinct personalities of their own. Each with it's own unique advantages. Some people will buy one of each, others will buy all of the parts to build any variation off of one valve - the point is that PEOPLE ARE BUYING.

Heck I say take this even further. Gloss anodized ULE stuff the "Pro line" for "tournament play and fast paced, flashy speedball." The flat black, chunky "high speed gear" is for the "TAC" line. The Electros go into another category. My point is that it is AWESOME that all of the AGD parts (for the most part) are interchangeable - but give them identity as well. Make them distinct - color, weight, and a collection names will do this!

Doesn't this kinda defeat the purpose of streamlining production? Does AGD want to keep adding new parts (and associated production costs) or simplify their line? Maybe TK can clarify their intent.

Originally posted by cledford

The problem I see with the Tac1 is it's price point. The issue that it's price $400-500 (based on Tom's last post) puts it squarely back in the very slim (almost empty) mid range that the mag has been stuck in for the last several years. You can buy a competent marker (say a Tippmann) and upgrade the hell out of it and still come in under the base price of a mag. Or, you can buy a upper-range electro gun for what it costs to get a mag fully set up to rip once you add on the upgrades.

I agree wholeheartedly. The mid-range market is largely dead. Look at buying practices for most new players. Start with a $150 blowback and then they either spend money incrementally to upgrade as their budget allows OR they just jump to the high end electro for their next purchase.

Originally posted by cledford

My sincere desire is for the company to return to it's earlier days of glory. I don't know what that will take in today's current environment

The mags glory days were when they were the HIGH-END marker to own. I remember back in 1991 when my friends would save for months so that they could afford the holy grail that was the classic valved, stainless bodied, powerfed, carbon fiber framed, paint chucker! Forgive my nostalgia, but it seems like you have to either go the high road or low road to succeed. There is no middle option.

[cphilip]

Its my understanding that the Tac 1 will be at SE AO day. This Saturday! See my signature for the link to detailed thread!

[BarryTolar]

Why does everyone keep thinking this thing will compete with A5's ?

Correct when I go wrong as I'm sure I will

the A5 With Retro Trigger is $280

It will run of CO2 GREAT

Unless I'm missing something the Tac1 isn't going to come with a true Retro valve (not that I have a problem with that as I can't see making a customer go buy a HPA tank to get his new marker to run and MOST rec/Scenario/woodsball players don't have HPA and don't have a way to fill it)

What I'm getting at is the A5 is faster shooting than a Classic mag

Now yes I know the mag is "better" good luck trying to sell that too the guys current playing in the woods(They've already seen the A5 and know how fast it shoots)

Just my thoughts on the matter

I hope it works out for AGD but somebody needs to explain HOW to me

Barry

[shartley]

Originally posted by BarryTolar
Why does everyone keep thinking this thing will compete with A5's ?

Correct when I go wrong as I'm sure I will

the A5 With Retro Trigger is $280

It will run of CO2 GREAT

Unless I'm missing something the Tac1 isn't going to come with a true Retro valve (not that I have a problem with that as I can't see making a customer go buy a HPA tank to get his new marker to run and MOST rec/Scenario/woodsball players don't have HPA and don't have a way to fill it)

What I'm getting at is the A5 is faster shooting than a Classic mag

Now yes I know the mag is "better" good luck trying to sell that too the guys current playing in the woods(They've already seen the A5 and know how fast it shoots)

Just my thoughts on the matter

I hope it works out for AGD but somebody needs to explain HOW to me

Barry

I think folks will have a choice, classic or retro. And as has been pointed out, not everyone is worried about having the fastest marker on the field. They do however, want a reliable one and one that meets their needs and desires.

The Tac-One is NOT going to be for everyone, but then again, neither is the A5... not by a long shot.