Speed Check/ W.A.S.

[sniper1rfa]

hehehe, i remember when i had my stock mayhem board... Unlimited shot buffer, and it cycled at 8 bps....


I could que up 30 shots and just let it run out, never pulling the trigger at all...


it thought it was stupid. i DID overshoot a couple times cause i fired too fast, and qued up a couple extra shots.



WAS, i like your boards, they are good, work great, and some useful features, i just dont like that you make extra, worthless and sometimes impossible claims.

this board CANNOT make you fire faster. you cant pull the trigger any faster with this board, and he has just stated that you will never que extra shots. So why claim it does that? Why not focus your hype on REAL advantages? its a good product, it will sell without BS attached.

[TransMan]

No he said that it was un likely that you would get a shot queued not that it was not possible. I'm sure that someone some where and some point in time has shot a burst of balls in which they pulled they trigger that fast.

He also just explained to you why his baords shoot faster. its because his bards read inputs of shots WAY faster then the stock boards so it never misses a pull. So if u were missing an extra shot or two because the original baord wasnt picking it up fast enough now you will be shooting faster. Stop just saying that it doesnt work and explain why it doesnt work.

[WickedAirSportz]

this board CANNOT make you fire faster. you cant pull the trigger any faster with this board,

Yes, in fact the board does allow you to shoot faster. Ask any customer that has switched from their SOB to the Equalizer. There is a definite increase in the rate of fire. The SOB is limited to about 16.5 bps before you start experiencing the dry fire (pops) while shooting, due to the eye logic thinking the bolt is actually a ball.

With the Equalzier, the trigger is scanned at 1 million times per second, not 66.6 times per second like the SOB. With the SOB, after a shot is fire, there is a trigger delay period (15ms min) before the trigger is scanned. This means that with a cycle time of about 45ms, if you pulled the trigger just right (cadence) the max rate of fire would be 60ms per shot (16.6bps). This could be a little faster or slower depending on the speed of your pneumatics.

As far as the que goes, there are numerous players that shoot fast that do que shots. If your marker pneumatics are slow (bad o-rings resulting in slow cycle time), you would probably que shots. I que shots myself with a fast setup.

The reason for the que is that you legitimately released and repulled the trigger during the cycling of the pneumatics. By NPPL, PSP, and PanAm rules, one pull = one shot. If the marker was ready to fire it would fire. So what if the marker was not ready? We que the event, and it fire immediately upon completion of the current cycle. The worst case I have ever seen is a delay of about 11ms + ball drop time.

It's one of the advertising features that most won't ever use, but it is part of how we obtain the high rates of fire with our Equalizer boards.

[sniper1rfa]

15 ms? then cycle time. OK, i can see that happening, and i can see a skipped shot once in a while. however, very rarly can i get less than .05 seconds between pulls... ive tried. its usually ~.065
So, i will give you the skipped shots. good job.

[EDIT]: After looking through your posts more carefully, you state that it scans every 15 ms. Now, this would not count the checks during the cycle, due to the lack of a shot buffer (assuming there isnt one). OK, Fine.
However, your making it seems like its an instantaneous scan. This cannot be, as it would limit the rof, and be so unreliable, that the people who wrote the code would have changed it. if you missed the scan, it would skip a shot. PLUS, the switch bounce would make it even harder to get a scan. That would never have made it through product testing, considering you could theoretically get skipped shots even when firing slowly. You could miss a scan just by tapping the trigger (which i do beleive can be done VERY fast, though not multiple times in a row).

I would think that those who wrote the code would make the scan rate as fast as possible. why would they make it anything other than a loop which scans at the rate of the chip? It would be dumb to do it any other way, and i assume that whoever is programming could figure this out, as it is very logical.

so, now the only claim i have read with any merit so far is the eye reading the bolt as a ball. I agree that eye logic is hard to get right.
[EDIT]

Unless you can pull the trigger faster than the cycle time (typically about 45ms), then the que won't happen at all. So, unless you can pull the trigger in excess of 22 bps, you will never have any shot ever qued.

i WONT give you this one. Nobody can pull the trigger that fast. Thats two pulls WITHIN .040 seconds (taking into account that you need the trigger down for the entire switch-debounce period, which i assumed is 5 ms for this. So really, you need to pull 25 bps, with a 5 ms delay on each pull. That means you have to move your finger(s) fully back and fully foward in 35 ms, plus the fact that you need to do it more than once. That is damn near impossible. your fingers just dont move that fast.

oh yeah, out of curiosity, does your cycle time number include the time it takes to load a ball (with a HALO, say...)?

Therefore, your shot buffer cannot be a claim, unless your giving me numbers which are not what you actually use.

[PolishSausage]

I really don't see a point to this thread, other than once again to try to dis-prove WAS's claims. The original intention was to show off the new board, right?

Then why are members in here posting how they don't like WAS, he's a liar, and his claims are false and shouldn't be advertised.

Guess what, ITS HIS COMPANY....
Questions are fine but the line should be drawn at "I hate WAS, he's a liar, blah blah blah..."

[sniper1rfa]

ah, very untrue. I dont think anybody here "hates" WAS. heck, most of the objectors do agree that they are nice boards (as I do). however, he hypes his stoff a little more than he should, and he is accesable, so he is in a good position to be disproved. :-)

Besides, the only way to prove something is to try to disprove it.

[nippinout]

Playing with debounce is scary stuff.

Switch noise is a 'cheaters' way of increasing ROF. The Shocker Turbo's were very scary guns. Imagine an Emag using noise to fire.

Let's hear more about the debounce feature.

[TransMan]

yes im going to agree with Sausage on this one the point of this thread was to find out how man bps that gun was shooting in the vid but no ones even attempted to do that yet.....

[WickedAirSportz]

sniper1rfa,

The trigger input is handled using a hardware level interrupt with the Equalizer. The hardware scans the trigger input pin every 4th clock cycle (4Mhz clock = 1 million times per second). When the interrupt occurs a flag is set and the interrupt vector is processed. The interrupt routine runs asyncronous to everything else. I created a complete multitasking OS for this product. The trigger is debounced when it is RELEASED, not pulled. If you pulled the trigger, it was generally by no accident. A low value pull-up resistor insures that false triggers do not occur due to humidity or debris in the switch that could cause a low amount of continuity.

The switch is scanned the entire time the marker is turned on, and this includes during the time the marker is firing.

It most certainly is possible to pull the trigger 22+ times per second, but only for a few shots, and perhaps between just two shots. This is not very common, and only those with very fast fingers (or a little bit of luck) can actually do it. I que shots about 7% of the time while I am shooting (according to a running total that I built into the test board). However, the best string of consecutive shots I have seen is 4 in a row that were qued. Generally, it is just one shot every 2 to 3 seconds of shooting. I do shoot fast though. I just played the PSP event and I shot 5 cases of paint in 8 games (5 minute max, with no games going the distance).

When you are walking your trigger, sometimes you get a bit out of sync and pull both fingers almost at the same time. It is generally in this case where the queing will occur as you are just releasing the trigger and the 2nd finger is pulling it.

Scanning the trigger all of the time with our hardware can never reduce the rate of fire, only increase it.

[Digger]

Indeed, on my friend's intimidator, he hit 25bps. Consistantly for about 5 seconds (no paint).

I know with the vision impulse with an I Frame, I have outshot halo B's and evoIIs and skipped using perfect gravity feeds.

The WAS board as I understand it, does not actually pull the trigger faster. It gives you credit for shots that you make that were otherwise ignored due to slow pnuematics or programming mrof or even the eye. Its also easier to pull the trigger faster because of the (and this is in the timmy, I dont know about the impulse) microswitch.

[WickedAirSportz]

The WAS board as I understand it, does not actually pull the trigger faster. It gives you credit for shots that you make that were otherwise ignored due to slow pnuematics or programming mrof or even the eye.

There are no credits given! The rate of fire displayed is the actual number of times that the pnuematics cycled in a 1 second interval, not an approximation or average.

[sniper1rfa]

Digger: 25 bps is doubtful, do you honestly realize how fast that is?

WAS: fine, you have made valid points.
so, for debounce, it just ignores the trigger for a debounce period (which is so small it wont matter cause you can move that fast) after it sees a closed switch? works.

oh yeah... what, exactly, is the trigger routine for the SOB board?


and really your not increasing a persons rof, your increasing the gun's, but thats just symantics...

[WickedAirSportz]

The SOB scans the trigger 66.6 times per second when it is not firing. At the end of a firing cycle, it waits one scan interval before checking the trigger. So, cycle time + "delay" value = roughly 60ms when the delay is set to the lowest value (15ms). If you have a fast solenoid, this time could be reduced to about 50ms.

[CRiZO]

lets just all say and admit it together.

"The WAS board is the shizzy."

On a texas storm timmy (has WAS) I was walking it at 18, it's much more responsive feeling than any other electro i've shot. Some of the guys on texas storm were doing 18 as well, but had short bursts over 20. It's entirely possible.

[xmetal2001]

Reductio ad absurdum

That was totally out of context, but it makes me sound smart...

Just like everything else this industry claims, I'll believe it when once I've tried it.