Speed Check/ W.A.S.

[Miscue]

WAS has a pattern of providing explanations that are contrary to reality... although seemingly plausible until close inspection. I'm far from satisfied with his explanation as to how his board can increase ROF legitimately. How does a "fair" circuit board help you fire faster? A board does not magically improve the interface between a human finger and a microswitch.

He talks about "queueing," and how it gives you shots you should have had, but was not accounted for. Sounds plausible, but I think there is a problem with this... I'll explain why.

I didn't double check WAS's math, but he says that 45ms cycle time of Timmy requires ~22bps for queueing to take place. I had no idea that people could shoot that fast. Like Shartley said... what's the point of queueing then?

Looking at only the electronics... checking the trigger 66 times a second is more than enough to handle 20bps or so on the trigger... although WAS makes it seem as though it is possible to fire in between that window. Yes, it is possible... but this is irrelevant even in worst case situations... and the only way you can fire twice within that window and have one shot unaccounted for is to shoot at 66+. When the trigger is pressed, a flag is raised immediately. (And if not, it was implemented in a stupid way). The CPU is not checking the 'trigger,' it does not matter if the trigger is depressed or not when it is checking... it is checking the raised flag which will not turn off until the CPU gets to it... 66 times a second. Also, you cannot demonstrate a single shot pull in which the gun does not fire because a window of opportunity is missed... that's simply a broken gun.

So, his 66 vs. million/sec check is horse puckey as far as the electronics go... and there is absolutely no reason for a million/sec board to queue shots that would not have been missed anyway by the 66/sec board... unless you can fire beyond 66bps.

I am somewhat aware of the WAS board's "cheater" characteristics... and eye-brow raising BPS. I've never heard of Angels, or other guns shooting in semi like the WAS-Timmy can... unless it's not in semi.

Let's say your fingers are moving in a flurry. How can you tell if it's a 13-15bps flurry... or a 20bps flurry? How can you tell if someone is actually walking the trigger really fast, w/o fumbling? How can you gauge the speed of someone's spastic wrist while fanning? You see a blur of finger movements, you see a blur of shots... that's all you can tell.

I have to wonder if there is a concealed turbo mode of some form, that does not trigger until high bps... and turns it into really high bps. Of course, this would need to be randomized so as to not draw attention with a steady FA cadence. Perhaps the bounce/debounce settings change as BPS goes up? Hell, they got the floating dwell settings don't they...? with increasing velocity as bps rises. This would attribute to high BPS and random shot patterns.

And... when people notice there's something odd about the Timmy's behavior... it can be attributed to QUEUEING!!! "Yes, you were actually shooting that fast but didn't know it!" Queueing... 1MHz board... etc... I have to wonder if this is a disguised explanation for a not-so semi mode.

So... Does anyone have a means to mess with the board settings, and test the gun... accounting for the number of cycles vs. the number of pulls at high ROF?

If Jim Drew could circumvent tourny rules by implementing 'features' that were VERY difficult to check at the tourny... do you think he would?

[WickedAirSportz]

So, his 66 vs. million/sec check is horse puckey as far as the electronics go... and there is absolutely no reason for a million/sec board to queue shots that would not have been missed anyway by the 66/sec board... unless you can fire beyond 66bps.

Wrong...

The SOB checks the trigger at the DELAY period (66.6 times per second maximum) when not firing. Are you going to tell me that checking the trigger every 15ms is same speed as checking every 1 us? 15ms is a LONG time. That is 3 checks in the same period it takes to cycle the marker. It is possible to have to have hold the trigger for at least 14ms before the trigger is finally detected. Also remember that the SOB does not initiate the first trigger check until the delay value (15ms min) has occurred after firing. This limits your rate of fire to about 16.5 bps max when your cycle time is 45ms. With the Equalizer, the trigger is scanned ALL of the time, and is debounced when the input signal is detected.

I welcome anyone to take any Equalizer board and put it on a logic analyzer and fire it electronically. You will find that it is 100% legal.

By the way... I met with the PSP rules committee, and they will have a new machine developed for them that will hard mount a marker and fire it, measuring each shot's velocity and rate of fire. I told the PSP that this was a great idea, and this would end all of the doubt about the legalities of the Equalizer.

they got the floating dwell settings don't they...? with increasing velocity as bps rises

No, we don't have a floating dwell setting. The dwell never changes from the value you set it at. Also, if you were to do some testing, you would find that increasing the dwell does not have any serious effect on the velocity. At 300 fps, using a 12" barrel, the ball is in the barrel for 3.3ms. Increasing your dwell to anything beyond what is necessary to make the valve open is just wasting air.

[Miscue]

Yes, that is what I'm saying!

This is why:

Let's say, you have your chip checks the trigger 66.6 times. Let's say your ROF is approx 22 BPS. Note that 66.6 / 22 is approximately 3.

Not only is it not possible for a 66.6 Hz chip to miss a trigger pull at 22bps... it will check it at least TWICE, and possibly THREE times.

Note the picture. Alternating colors = new trigger pull or new window for CPU to check. And... trigger pulls are 1/3 the size of the cpu window... like previously explained. No matter how you move it around... you are GUARANTEED at least TWO reads (2 CPU windows fully fit into trigger window) from the CPU.

[WickedAirSportz]

Not only is it not possible for a 66.6 Hz chip to miss a trigger pull at 22bps... it will check it at least TWICE, and possibly THREE times.

No... it doesn't work that way.


Let's say the DELAY period for the SOB is 15ms (the fastest possible). Let's say your cycle time is 45ms.

We pull the trigger and 45ms + 15ms (60ms) goes by, and now the trigger can be checked every 15ms. 60ms is not 22bps, it is 16.66 bps.

If we only scanned the trigger 66.6 times per second with the Equalizer, you would be able to tell it was slower over a long period of firiing.

[1stdeadeye]

Psychic Vision

*Psychic time*

I see another WAS thread going down in flames!

WAS,
Miscue's argument seems sound. How can it miss a shot at 22BPs when it should have been checked 2 to 3 times by the standard board.

BTW, can you guys dumb down your answers for us "technologically impaired" AOers?

[sniper1rfa]

BTW, can you guys dumb down your answers for us "technologically impaired" AOers?

no. :)



WAS, you never really answered my question. i meant, does the SOB have a shot buffer? a shot buffer being the same as your "shot que". I suspect it does, as just about every gun i have ever fired has one (it prevents skipped shots, which would definately happen). if it does not, then your board is an improvment, because then the trigger wouldnt be checked at all during the fire cycle. however, since nobody is specifically complaining about skipped shots, i doubt this is the case...


Please give me an in depth explanation of how the SOB code works, as you did for your own board. that is, of course, unless you havent actually done any reverse engineering of the board, which i also doubt. :)

[WickedAirSportz]

Yes, the SOB does have a single shot buffer, however, this causes the marker to misfire (dry fire) because the bolt is thought to be a ball on the way back, so the delay has to be turned up to prevent the misfires. The faster you shoot, the longer the delay has to be. I can cause misfires at anything lower than 40ms when walking the trigger.

[Miscue]

You claim that the SOB misses shots because the CPU isn't fast enough. At higher BPS, there are more opportunities to miss the window by random chance... thus why it is noticeable.

Ok...

Then for the same principles, you should also be able to demonstrate this taking single shots... tapping and releasing trigger similarly as at high ROF. By random chance, equal to the random chance at high ROF, eventually the gun will not fire.

I've never heard of anyone complaining about their Timmy not firing.

The reason being: The boards do not work in the way you claim them to.

[RRfireblade]

Just to shorten the path of this thread a little,A gun with a 16.6bps cap should be fairly easy to improve with an uncapped or higher capped board.It's not terribly difficult to outshoot 16bps on occasion.I don't see how that applies to an Impulse with a cap of 20 bps.If you can fire it at 20 bps stock with no problems how can it possibly be made faster than that if no one can shoot beyond 20 bps manually?
Even with que'd shoots, you'd have to pull beyond 20bps to "store" any shots on the stock board alone.Even if that was possible,NOT,that's Bull crap and SHOULD be illegal!!Since when should you get credit for shooting faster than your gun can cycle? At that rate, why even attach a trigger to the gun in the first place? I'll just mount a trigger to a PC and "store" BPS and then transfer the shots to the marker to deliver than as fast as it can.Or better yet,I better take into account for slower loaders and "store" shoots until the loader can catch up and fire them then.That's alot of crap if you ask me.I guess it pays to be in tight with NPPL rulings huh Mr. Drew. You throw a bunch of seudo tech speak around that's likely beyond the average understanding and your golden.
But back on topic,I'd still like to hear a reason that actully makes sense that shows how a board capped at 20bps can be made faster without queing shots,or is that simply the whole gimmick there too.
My whole point of this thread is this,if you go over to I.O.G. the kids over there are going nuts over this thing because Jim keeps telling them that this board is the reason he shoots so fast.Then he comes over here and states all kinds of examples of him outshooting this and that.It just doesn't seem right to take advantage of a bunch of younger kids.I thought you might TRY to be honest,oh well.
What's sad and should be fairly obvious,is if you simply state the real benifits of the board,better eye etc,and priced it around that of a stock vision,150-160,you'd do just fine.Heck,I might even buy one for that.But to speak out of your butt with erratic facts is just costing you business from the rest of us.I mean really,how long can you hang your hat on the SOB board?It seems like your not even sure of the details yourself.You simply take every question and apply it to the SOB, with the same handful of data you seem to know all ready.
Anyway, I'm sure non of this will effect your sales which seems to be your primary motivation, so good luck,live long and prosper.(without my help)

Jay.

[Digger]

Not being an Intimidator expert, Im gonna do something stupid and join this little argument and see if I can clarify, or at least socratically find out what you kids are talking about.

Originally posted by Miscue
Then for the same principles, you should also be able to demonstrate this taking single shots... tapping and releasing trigger similarly as at high ROF. By random chance, equal to the random chance at high ROF, eventually the gun will not fire.

I dont think you understand this. What Jim is saying is that when you creep your ROF above 16.6bps, the CPU has a "random" chance of not catching a trigger pull. If I were to pull the trigger twice during the 15ms window (right after the last check and right before the next) then it would only fire once for two pulls.

Therefore, the scanning would catch both trigger pulls and fire twice. In this way, the WAS Board does not make you shoot faster, but rather allows you to shoot as fast as you can.

I have a friend with slow fingers. He cant get over 11bps on his angel without a lot of sweat going into it. He's natural around 9.5bps. He picked up an intimidator with WAS Board and a trigger job designed to feel like an Angel, and was hitting...guess what? thats right, 11bps.

Miscue, stop reaching for sour grapes.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Digger
Not being an Intimidator expert, Im gonna do something stupid and join this little argument and see if I can clarify, or at least socratically find out what you kids are talking about.



I dont think you understand this. What Jim is saying is that when you creep your ROF above 16.6bps, the CPU has a "random" chance of not catching a trigger pull. If I were to pull the trigger twice during the 15ms window (right after the last check and right before the next) then it would only fire once for two pulls.

Therefore, the scanning would catch both trigger pulls and fire twice. In this way, the WAS Board does not make you shoot faster, but rather allows you to shoot as fast as you can.

I have a friend with slow fingers. He cant get over 11bps on his angel without a lot of sweat going into it. He's natural around 9.5bps. He picked up an intimidator with WAS Board and a trigger job designed to feel like an Angel, and was hitting...guess what? thats right, 11bps.

Miscue, stop reaching for sour grapes.

[WickedAirSportz]

It is not impossible to pull the trigger faster than 20bps between two consecutive shots. It is highly unlikely that you could do this several times in a row. In all of my testing over the last 6 months, the best I have ever seen is 4 consecutive shots that were qued. I do pull the trigger fast, and I que shots as much as 7% of the time I am shooting. Someone with a slow marker (slow solenoid or worn o-rings) stands a much better chance of queing an event because of the cycle time being so slow. I have one Intimidator where the cycle time is 59ms. With this marker, the queing occurs much more frequently than my other markers having cycle times in the mid 30ms range.

Scanning the trigger 1 million times per second makes sure you never miss the "window".

The board doesn't make you pull the trigger faster, it responds to the trigger input faster.

As far as queing goes... every manufacturer that has a marker with COPs, ACE, etc. has queing for the ball drop. You pull the trigger, the trigger event is detected, and then the shot is held off until a ball is in the breech. The time period waiting for the ball is somewhere between 100ms and 750ms, depending on the marker.

[Digger]

Not to get back on topic or anything, but what features of the Intimidator WAS Board will carry over to the Impulse, and what features will be unique?

[WickedAirSportz]

Carried over:

Better power supply and solenoid output. Hopper trigger. Programming port. Same logic for eyes (but using reflective technology instead of beam break).

Unique:

Programmable solenoid output voltage. Comes with new eye system.

[Digger]

Can you go into any detail, especially "hopper trigger"?