Smart Parts Strikes Again! now its AKA

[AGD]

I will play devil's advocate here, THIS IS NOT THE OPININON OF AGD!

Why would anyone care if they lost this suit? Why would any self respecting paintball company lay out hard cash to win this? Half the companies have rolled over all ready. After all, if everyone is paying then the only person who is REALLY paying is YOU!

As long as everyone is on a level playing field thats all that matters UNLESS the consumers don't like it. It sure doesn't seem like any lawsuits have hurt any sales lately.

NOT MY OPINION ONLY A PERSPECTIVE.

AGD

[Steelrat]

If no one opposes the SP lawsuits, whats to prevent every other company out there from attempting lawsuits of its own? From what I've read, SP's lawsuit is a bit questionable. To allow a questionable lawsuit to succeed is to invite a whole slew of other ridiculous lawsuits. Whats next?

This is the same reason the NRA opposes every bit of legislation restricting firearms use in any way, including stuff like assault-weapon bans and armor-piercing ammo bans. If you open up the floodgates to let one pass, the rest come charging thru while the doors are open.

[f3rr3+]

Originally posted by 03vert
i think we should all start a anti-sp campeign(sp) like putting down with smartparts in our sigs or just informing everyone we can about what they are doing to paintball. if i ever figure out how to cust. my sig im putting in a nazi smartparts symbol. i think i've got one lying around if anyone needs it.

welcome to 1996....

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

AGD

AGD, great devil's advocate point. Maybe no one should fight and let the costs pass on to customers or stay out of the electro marker entirely. But here's where it gets ugly: tournament players and wannabe tournament players are the largest source of profit, and the high-paint usage electros promote keep paint manufacturers sponsoring tourneys that allow these markers. Customers buy products that keep them on top of the game, especially if it can give them uncatchable illegal tricks. So mech markers wouldn't be able to hang in the series that right now is drawing the most players and AGD as well as any other companies who choose to go mech will be at a serious disadvantage as my second point kicks in: Marker affordability. If AGD continues to produce electros, they will be forced to include royalties to SP, meaning your basic electro mag will be more expensive than SP's high end impulse. I know the Impulse is made cheaply but it is fast and people will be buying it over a mag if it's a couple hundred less, has an eye, etc. You only have so much control of the market.

So I guess the question is still, is it worth it? Is the additional cost that will be included in each marker not worth the cost of fighting in courts? This is why I say work with other companies, it really drops the cost and lets it be shared by many companies, making fighting it more feasible. Because I think the market share you'd be dropping giving SP and the other rolled-over companies electro-exclusivity would cripple your company as mechs wouldn't attract customers, especially with so many lowcost ACE'd markers are coming out. And if you choose to avoid the fight and agree to pay, you would have to have an overpriced marker because you're covering royalties when SP, and probably DYE and NPS depending on what their deal was, don't have to. And what is to stop SP from releasing an at-cost Impulse just to burn you out once you've agreed to pay them the settlement? They'd have plenty of money, and that would be the killshot, you wouldn't have a chance to compete with it. They're going to take you out unless you fight it, both of the other roads are dead ends created by SP, this is the only one they can't stop. Best of luck, I want to see AGD be able to keep going, but SP is definitely doing what they can to prevent that.

[danheneise]

i'm just wondering what this would have to do with AGD anyways, now i'm not fully informed of all the crap SP is putting out but agd dosen't use any normal sort of on/off switch, rather a simple pin that controls the electrical flow, even if AGD's electric marker designs were attacked, they could just agree to take them off the market and still be good with the mech style mags, and same goes for wgp as most thier markers are mech, i just don't see why you guys say that AGD and WGP should "band" together with AKA, as far is i'm concerned it's not thier fight.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

fight

Because the fight will come to them, just watch, and SP will be happy to define switch as anything that goes from off to on, which is a trigger: optical, magnetic, switch, or whatever. AGD and WGP are vulnerable, the storm just hasn't reached them yet.

And it will be a serious uphill battle for WGP and AGD if they have no electro product, the Eblade and Emag were godsends for them that thrust them back in a market they were starting to slip a little from. Having to give those up will hurt. The companies don't drive the market, the customers do, and the benefits of E-markers are a very popular item right now.

[03vert]

i say we should put some money in and make a pot to donate to aka's defense and also hit anyone in the face that has a imp or "nerve" or shocker ect. and says that smart parts rules. ive said it all along, i hate em. and yes i do have a bushy but that only feeds my urge to spend my money on paint that i dont CHOP but SHOOT as would be the case with any smart parts product. and we really should take some kind of action instead of whining about how much its a bite in the *** to paintball.

[Beemer]

I See

I know Tom would just consider me one of the "kids on the pulse of the industry middle of the crowd yadda yadda",

How do you know this and if you read that thread you know what his follow up posts were. I took that as a little dis

There are a lot of facts that I know as an industry person that I unfortunately can not share in public. It is frustrating to try and come from a postition of truth and constantly get beaten

I agree we need to get some serious Synergy going.
Lets ask the Wizard what we as AO can do to make a difference.


So Tom what can we do?

[cledford]

OK, first we all knew this day was coming since the very first SP lawsuit. As far as AKA fighting - nice words, but be for real. SP is the Wal-Mart of the paintball world - more then enough cash to crush (in the legal arena) any one who stands against them. This process has been coldly calculated. Go after ICD when the owner is sick, get Dye and National to sign on through some "sweet heart deal" (to lend legitimacy to their bogus claims) them go after the other small, low hanging apples like AKA or AGD. As Tom said, what would any small company get from bankrupting themselves through legal proceedings when they can just cave and then pass to cost onto the willing consumer at no initial expense? Look at it from the perspective that you own AKA, would you spend yourself out of business or take the deal that really won't cost you much in the short run?

I'm not sure what can be done to fix this thing, but it obvious the Gardner's (scum) see how "little'ol" paintball has now become a multi-million dollar a year business and therefore seek to claim as much as they can for themselves. Gone are the "gentleman's agreements" and days of "fair play" and "respect" for other companies that relied on each other in a symbiotic fashion - now it's down to the art of war and they're winning. Think Survivor - eventually it's time to get down to business to insure you've got the best chance at winning the cash. The only thing that they're really guilty of is playing to win, when everyone else was just "getting along" content with their share.

In the end the only people who can fix this (the consumer) never will - because just like in the retail world there are many out there who would sacrifice the good for the whole to personally save themselves a few dollars. This battle is just a little example of what's wrong with our whole society - why are we in ever increasing droves flocking to Wal-Mart to buy goods at a fraction of what they cost a few years ago, while those same purchases destroy domestic manufacturing jobs by the tens of thousands - due to the fact that to keep the prices so low the stuff must be made in some other country.

I know I've wandered a little far off the reservation, so in short my point is that it is up to the consumer to stop SP, but it ain't gonna happen. Anyone want to guess what the cost of a shocker will be in relation to EVERY other electro once these silly suits are over and SP starts jacking up the royalties? Anyone else wan't to take a stab at how many shockers compared to other markers will be in use?

Sorry to sound so glum - but asking (or expecting) AKA, AGD, or ICD to fight this is like expecting someone else to protect your home - if you don't care enough, why should someone else risk their life?

-Calvin (Ranting)

[Cyberious]

As many Electros as I have I am not that tied to them. Quite frankly I think AGD should buy Nicad's design of that X-Valved Mag with the Angel grip he had at World Cup. The thing had the pull of an electro with no electronics. I would be very happy using that marker. It was as fast as my X-Mag. Tom, you're going after the Scenario market...take the Tourney market too. Nicad's marker was light, fast, and looked great.

Believe me folks Smart Parts won't stop. They feel as if they are conducting business in a proper manner even though it could be seen as somewhat un-ethical.

They can't beat other companies by designing superior markers so that have to resort to sore loser tactics. IMO, (from my experience at least) the 03 shocker sucks (you may get one that works, you may not), the Impy is OK but problematic (BKO's seem more reliable), the old shockers were boat anchors. It is unlikely that any of us banning SP is going to help anything. Really, how many of you Smart Parts nay-sayers still have posters of the Smart Parts girls somewhere?

Bottom line is they are going to still do their thing no matter what we say, Probably the best we can hope for is that the Gardners will sue the paintball marker industry until it is damaged then become bored and move on to something else leaving us to rebuild.

[AGD]

100 Calvin's could run this whole country the right way.

AGD

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

beemer

Beemer, the line you're referring to was something Tom aimed towards Warped1 in a thread him and I were part of and it basically came across as Tom saying that we, the people playing but not actually involved in the business, don't really understand what's going on which kind of made us seem like clueless kids, I didn't like that. I'm saying I understand some details can't be divulged but there are many of us here who see beyond the whole "boycott SP and nazi sign" type of action and would love to know what we can actually do to help out AGD, that some people do act like kids but many day-to-day players are not just mindless consumers.

The walmart reference is a good one, I think a Microsoft one is a good one as well. And in the movie You've Got Mail (don't even start flaming me for watching it, it wasn't that bad, meg ryan is cute and tom hanks is funny ) alot of people raised a stink about the big store coming in but in the end they still went and the little one had to go out of business. Same thing in the industry, the consumer will go where the deals for top-end items are, and SP are looking to monopolize that.

However, here is another reference that may apply: neighborhood watch. In neighborhoods where everyone takes the stance that it's ok someone else is getting broken into, as long as it's not mine, but then theirs gets broken into the next week, crime continues. In neighborhoods where everyone teams together and takes a stance, criminals stay well away from and also know it's a threat because if they make a move they sum of all the small parts is bigger than their overall part. In a schoolyard, a bully goes around and picks on kids one by one, but no one stands up for it because they want to keep a low profile so they aren't targeted next. But if ten kids stood up when the bully went after one of them, that bully would get annihilated and go off wimpering. Unless he had friends, he'd know his days were over. Those are both references that apply here, do the companies want to be the house just praying they don't get hit next, or the kid just hoping they won't be next, or should they take a stance and take this bully out before SP REALLY gets momentum, wins this one, them comes up with another patent or way to go after them all over again. It may be a case where doing this now stops SP in their tracks and doesn't open the risk of them being able to cripple AGD and others so bad they have to leave the industry. I would never want to see that, but SP has proven they're happy to do it and able to do it due to the landscape and size of the PBall industry. I am sure I don't know specific details, I just want to see AGD, WGP, AKA, and all them make it through this because the industry is going to be disgusting if SP, NPS, and such take hold. Tom loves the game too much to let that happen without a fight.

[AGD]

Nicad's trigger system is very inovative. The problem is that all "high rate of fire" electros use programing to achieve those incredible firing rates and not fingers. As long as thats the way we play the game we need fly by wire to make it happen.

Mechanical triggers could bypass all the problems of lawsuits and cheater boards but until YOU the playing public believes its cooler to shoot someone out based on skill then its not going to happen.

AGD

[p8ntball1016]

Originally posted by AGD
Nicad's trigger system is very inovative. The problem is that all "high rate of fire" electros use programing to achieve those incredible firing rates and not fingers. As long as thats the way we play the game we need fly by wire to make it happen.

Mechanical triggers could bypass all the problems of lawsuits and cheater boards but until YOU the playing public believes its cooler to shoot someone out based on skill then its not going to happen.

AGD

Oh you should see the fun i have schooling people with my stock mag trigger. Wait til i get my Y grip. Don't be suprised if i have to school you.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by AGD
Nicad's trigger system is very inovative. The problem is that all "high rate of fire" electros use programing to achieve those incredible firing rates and not fingers. As long as thats the way we play the game we need fly by wire to make it happen.

Mechanical triggers could bypass all the problems of lawsuits and cheater boards but until YOU the playing public believes its cooler to shoot someone out based on skill then its not going to happen.

AGD

Yes Tom, but what about accuracy by volume?