A disturbing trend...

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  • Wes Janson
    Registered User
    • Oct 2003
    • 304

    #61
    Before I say anything else, I'd like to point out my backround. My very first game ever was in an overgrown lot behind a store, with a half dozen friends using BE semis. It's entirely possible that I've never had as much fun since then as I did on that day. My local field and home base, Hi-Tech, seems to be an interesting combination of the opposing outlooks here. There is a complete supair field in the back of the property, and a new hyperball field being constructed, but the single most popular field is a low-tech speedball court. The bunkers are just plywood boards stuck together in + shapes, with a dozen or so oak trees around the field providing cover and shade. The ground is not 100% flat, nor is there any vine growth. Some of the other fields nearby use a more wooded approach, with a dozen or two bunkers, berms, palmetto bushes, creeks, and log piles for cover. Honestly, I don't really care what field I'm on so long as it isn't uncomfortable to play. The debate doesn't make much sense to me. But I'll try to field some guesses. Anyways:


    At risk of generalizing and stereotyping, there is a major difference to be noted between woodsball and speedball and their origins. Woodsball was, is, and will continue to be respectful and aware of it's militaristic roots. Scenario games frequently recreate famous battles, and a fair number of players are veterans. To such a group, one's coolness is not considered as a factor for acceptance. Skill and maturity earn respect more than gear does. How many times have you seen someone with a low-end pump inspire fear and respect not from the flashiness of their gear, but from their skill and experience playing? I recall one player at my local field who went out using a rental gun, the same rental that most of us referred to as a melee weapon, and a ghillie suit. After a single game he gained respect from everyone because of his ability to sit and snipe player after player without ever being spotted. The military types who are commonly found at scenario games do not care what the latest air tank is, or who won the World Cup. It may be an overgeneralization, but I've seen a distinct difference in what it takes to be accepted at woodsball, and it is generally a set of values about how one should play the game, and how one should act.

    On the other hand, speedball does not seem to possess the same "respect for one's elders" that I see in woodsball. There is respect for the "big dog", but not for the veterans-because from everything I've seen, speedball does not seem to attract the older players as much. Speedball seems to be a teenager's game, with teenage values. This is not for all speedballers, but for a significant percentage that seperates it from woodsball. Compared statistically, and in terms of media (both in-sport and out) attention, it seems to me that speedballers would likely be found to be more likely to be in the 15-30 range. To be fair, some older players may like speedball, may play or coach it, but it's a younger person's game. And while it may not yet be an official Olympic sport, it's trying hard to possess the same elements of coolness of other things, that attract teenagers. How many guns are made and sold solely on the basis that it's got a new name and a new anno job, thus it must be the best marker/it's vital to own one if you wish to be cool? Put another way, in the woods the purpose of most gear is to avoid being seen. In speedball, the opposite is true.

    I honestly don't think paintball has much to worry about from activist groups as some fear. The industry is already becoming entrenched, as manufacturers carve niches for themselves and accumulate financial power. With a dozen periodicals, probably close to ten million players, and global participation in the sport, getting rid of paintball would be an incredibly difficult task for anyone. While my previous posts may have given a different impression, I don't feel we need to worry about the sort of restrictions Australia and the United Kingdom are subject to, because this is the United States. Our rights are strongest here than anywhere else, and it would take monumental public hatred of paintball to force the creation of laws restricting the game. Image be damned, I've yet to see a well-organized, well-educated anti-paintball group yet. Let us consider Airsoft to be our canary: we should consider its reception by the public to its realistic weaponry. As for now, the sport is going strong and continues to grow. Woodsball or speedball, both are good so long as they remain within the boundaries of sportmanship and safety.
    Last edited by Wes Janson; 01-20-2004, 11:05 PM.
    Audentes Fortuna Juvats-Fortune Favors The Bold

    Blue-Gold Minimag Boy

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    • cledford
      Registered User
      • Feb 2001
      • 1386

      #62
      Originally posted by Wes Janson
      At risk of generalizing and stereotyping, there is a major difference to be noted between woodsball and speedball and their origins. Woodsball was, is, and will continue to be respectful and aware of it's militaristic roots. Scenario games recreate famous battles, and a fair number of players are veterans. To such a group, one's coolness is not considered as a factor for acceptance. Skill and maturity earn respect more than gear does.

      The military types who are commonly found at scenario games do not care what the latest air tank is, or who won the World Cup. It may be an overgeneralization, but I've seen a distinct difference in what it takes to be accepted at woodsball, and it is generally a set of values about how one should play the game, and how one should act.
      On the other hand, speedball does not seem to possess the same "respect for one's elders" that I see in woodsball. There is respect for the "big dog", but not for the veterans-because from everything I've seen, speedball does not seem to attract the older players as much. Speedball seems to be a teenager's game, with teenage values. This is not for all speedballers, but for a significant percentage that seperates it from woodsball. Compared statistically, and in terms of media (both in-sport and out) attention, it seems to me that speedballers would likely be found to be more likely to be in the 15-30 range. I will continue this later.

      Best post I've seen yet - hit the nail on the head. I'd say speedball was a "punks game" but I like it too I will say that pro paintball is disgusting to me and does not reflect ANYTHING I ever want to be associated with - which is sad.

      -Calvin
      From a poster at PB Nation:

      ""Jim, back to your cave. Bob Long is on the batphone..."

      MY FEEDBACK

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      • GatoLoco
        I wear a cat on my back
        • Apr 2003
        • 172

        #63
        My take on the whole recball vs. speedball vs. whatever

        Personally, I go at it like a trumpet player would look at it different varieties of music. A player can enjoy classical music the most, as it is very challenging in the technique and prestine tone involved, and they just love the sound of it. That same player can still love jazz for its beautiful unpredictability, sheer range involved, and the "dance" energy involved. This player can also like to dabble in musical theater pit playing, as it can determine the mood of the actors and the audience. The person may also enjoy playing carnaval and wind ensemble music, however to an extent, as they may find the genre to be a little unvaried. And then again there may be the genre that they absolutly hate, such as ska. They hate ska for the lack of technique, tone, and difficulty involved. Others may love ska, but they are completely against it.

        Does this mean that just because the player loves classical the most, he will only play classical? Of course not! He may not like the others as much, but still love them and love playing them, but won't think twice about saying no to ska.

        It is the same with a paintball player. If somebody likes airball the best, should they never play woodsball? Should they steer clear of hyperball? Should they run at the first sight of a concept field with a large otter bunker in the middle? Of course not! However they may despise playing in a scenario because they feel it is simply too crowded.

        What I am trying to say here is that too many forums are litered with people going at eachothers throtes over "Go play rec ball you Jn00b3" and "Go spray you're no talent marker that you're daddy bought you, you skill-less taco-turd!" People need to relax and realize that different people like different things. They should also realize that like music, there are many variants on the same idea, some seemingly changing the game. So go out and try some of these "jn00b13 woods" or "4 year old with a machine gun" games. Who knows, you might (gasp) like it, or at least see it as an escape to break your trend.

        Ps. keep in mind that like different types of music, by playing different types of paintball, you learn things that will help you in your "normal" playing.
        WARNING!: This cat is not an Al Roker imposter

        Comment

        • Tyger
          video /k radio star
          • Oct 2002
          • 1210

          #64
          Thing is... Last Friday I wanted to play 'ball. I had no money, but a lot of leftover paint for this indoor field. So, I played stock class (I know, I know, AGD sponsors the show and me... But the E-mag is a monster to feed....)

          Anyhow, Playing SC I found myself as a prime target. Why? I was playing SC, and holding my own. I didn't get to play enough to really get a good feel, as Az twisted his ankle and decided that getting it looked at would be a good idea. (Sorry Az!!!) But it demonstrates a little of the principle Wes was talking about.

          I still think it's disturbing that the "public face" of paintball wants to completely disown the heritage and the roots of the game. For what it's worth, I still think the IAO sold out when they went all airball. But that's me.

          Here's a thought. Could it be that they're all trying to disown it becasue they, in fact, have never PLAYED in woods? Someone told me that we're approaching a time in which som players have never stepped into a pair of cammos, let alone into a woods. Could it just be that?

          IMHO, there's a LOT of room for woods and speedball. There's a lot of fields that hybrid, and have wooded speedball courses. I personally would rather just play. Grab a "whatever" and go have fun. I prefer the woods, but in January, on Friday night, I'll take the airball.

          I have one more theory too, about all this. Tongue in cheek. A lot of he 'old guard' in X-Ball cut their teeth in the woods back in the mid to early 90's. But they're all playing arenas now. I think I've got it figured out too. They don't want to hike those big fields. They don't want to run 200 yards from flag to flag, and slam on the ground while grabbing the flag. (hee hee hee hee....)

          -Tyger


          "Oh, you're wearing a tail and ears, you're a freak."
          "No social change has ever come about without freaks. Einstein was a freak. Ben Franklin was a freak. Martin Luther King was a freak. ...be proud to be included in those ranks."
          -2, The Ranting Gryphon

          Comment

          • Wes Janson
            Registered User
            • Oct 2003
            • 304

            #65
            Before I edit my above post to continue my thoughts, I just wanted to make a random comment..

            I don't understand anti-camo.

            I fully understand that some people may not be able to afford decent, appropriately-colored camoflauge pants and a shirt. And I fully appreciate that some people may not ever get into a situation (woodsball) which requires camo. But for the absolute life of me, I cannot understand why some people who have the money, the opportunity, and the need for good concealment not only ignore it, but seem to openly scorn logic by going out into the woods wearing bright, primary-colors shirts, pants, hats, masks, etc. To be honest, my 'mag is bright, shiny, and visible. But I never go out without camo, and many times I find myself cursing the giant target my gun makes.

            There's an example that keeps popping into my head of of this principle. We were playing a good-sized, ~40 person game at the local field, on a decently-wooded course with a creek, lots of brush, and a half dozen large bunkers or so. My dad and I moved up the right side following the side road, with some other people near us. As my father overeagerly rushed into a strand of palmettos, he got nailed by an unseen person on the other side. I lied down onto a small berm, and watched the palmettos a couple dozen yards from me. Something was bugging me, but I wasn't sure what. After a minute or two, I spotted a splotch of bright blue down on the ground, underneath some palmettos. Drawn in by the sight, I wondered if someone had dropped a condom or a pod perhaps; something I should go pick up. As I looked, I saw the blue spot move side to side, and then jiggle a little bit. Sighting in, I finally identified it as a blue bandana behind an enemy player's mask. It only took three or four shots to penetrate the scrub and nail him, from which point I moved up and past and we continued our advance.

            It's only logical to wear camoflauge or dark colors when playing woodsball. This is an inevitable part of the sport. Even speedballers might benefit from duller colors on themselves and their gear. Yet a vast percentage of people forgo concealment intentionally, intent on looking "cool" on the field. Without being judgemental, it occurs to me that the point of paintballing is to shoot other players and avoid being shot, for the purpose of having fun. Perhaps more players will learn in the future that the "bling bling" factor really starts to suck on the field when it turns into the "target sighted" factor.

            EDIT: One of these days I'll remember to do that enter-button thing while typing the post.
            Last edited by Wes Janson; 01-20-2004, 10:52 PM.
            Audentes Fortuna Juvats-Fortune Favors The Bold

            Blue-Gold Minimag Boy

            Comment

            • punkncat
              One foot less
              • Feb 2003
              • 5841

              #66
              I started playing paintball in the woods, like many others have.I really enjoyed getting out and "hunting" my buds through the woods.After a while I started into the rec-ball scene.Really just to be able to get more game in less time.I enjoy both types of play, but really for different reasons.
              I generally play woods ball on privately owned land , or in a scenario.Either way its great to hang out or camp with the very mixed variety of players that you run across in these types of evironments.No doubt there is a tendency towards "noobs" in the woodsball/scenario scene, but the "sit and wait" factor mentioned earlier has an equalizing effect for those of us with more experiance or bravado.
              I think it fairly neat to see all the different scenario oriented gear that you see at these woodsball events.People really take time and care to mask their outline with camo/guillie suits.Put the detail into making their marker look the part.You have to admit , its quite impressive to see some tac-vested,green beret looking,squad member getting into his game.
              However , given my druthers I will play rec ball.It is a faster paced game, with a quicker turn around.The tendency is to more experianced players in the games.There is no way to get better unless you are playing ball with people considerably better than yourself.
              The learning curve accelerates quite a bit when you are getting your (rear) handed to you.I have learned skills in speedball over the course of a few games , that woodsballers who have played for years havent picked up yet.I may not be able to creep and crawl like some of them , but faced in a firefight and I would rather have the calm in a storm experiance you get from speedball.

              As far as Camo is concerned , I wear it always.Its cheap , its comfortable , and works wonderfully.I have just never cared to spend big bucks on paintball clothes that do me no good in the woods.I don't mind looking redneck at the speedball field wearing my hobo looking surplus clothes.

              Merged your thread with this one if you didn't notice.

              Gunga
              Last edited by Gunga; 01-20-2004, 11:20 PM.

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              • elpimpo
                carpe noctem
                • Nov 2002
                • 1713

                #67
                sorry to break it but nobody really cares this has been a drawn out subject its starting to get a little gay and plus we all know that x ball is the ruler of the paintball world
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                • Wes Janson
                  Registered User
                  • Oct 2003
                  • 304

                  #68
                  Crazy cat, there are other threads already on this forum, in fact, already on this page, that address the issue. You're more likely to recieve *ahem* reasonable responses there, as well as read things that you may find interesting and insightful.
                  Audentes Fortuna Juvats-Fortune Favors The Bold

                  Blue-Gold Minimag Boy

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                  • Brophog
                    Registered User
                    • Jan 2004
                    • 346

                    #69
                    Originally posted by Tyger


                    Here's a thought. Could it be that they're all trying to disown it becasue they, in fact, have never PLAYED in woods?
                    -Tyger
                    I believe I said that 3 pages ago. I still think its a valid assumption, particularly with the massive media coverage devoted to the tournament side.

                    Comment

                    • Tyger
                      video /k radio star
                      • Oct 2002
                      • 1210

                      #70
                      Originally posted by Brophog


                      I believe I said that 3 pages ago. I still think its a valid assumption, particularly with the massive media coverage devoted to the tournament side.
                      I just cna't believe that the answers are just that easy tho. I can't believe it's only about fear of a buised ego and fear of the unknown.

                      -Tyger


                      "Oh, you're wearing a tail and ears, you're a freak."
                      "No social change has ever come about without freaks. Einstein was a freak. Ben Franklin was a freak. Martin Luther King was a freak. ...be proud to be included in those ranks."
                      -2, The Ranting Gryphon

                      Comment

                      • Gunga
                        Former AGD Factory Tech
                        • May 2001
                        • 1497

                        #71
                        Originally posted by Tyger
                        I can't believe it's only about fear of a buised ego and fear of the unknown.

                        -Tyger
                        They're just scared of spiders. And Spyders.

                        Comment

                        • shartley
                          paintball player
                          • Mar 2001
                          • 9169

                          #72
                          Originally posted by Gunga


                          They're just scared of spiders. And Spyders.
                          LOL This is classic.

                          But sooooo true at times. There is less wounded pride being shot out by a player with a $1000+ marker than it is by some 14 year old with a TL Plus or rented Tippmann.

                          www.ShartleyCustoms.com
                          Custom Paintball Products and Accessories
                          CLICK HERE to Check out our PDU SERIES GEAR!


                          its more like a paper cut that has primadonna's yelling murder... - Glickman

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                          • Severe
                            Leader of Lililputions
                            • Feb 2002
                            • 315

                            #73
                            I think the whole, "...never have PLAYED in the woods.." thing has a lot merit. But I think it's more than paintball.

                            I play at a medium sizee woods-exclusive field in central North Carolina. It's not exactly the big city, but it never ceases to amaze me when I hear kids (anyone younger than me) say that they've never BEEN in the woods. Much less played in them for an extended amount of time.

                            I guess that's a product of the high density housing communities and computers. I'm also an avid gamer and just about every kid out there relates to gaming. I don't think nearly as many kids actually get out and get dirty in the 'woods' anymore. Where as some of the 'veteran' players I know grew up playing in them daily.

                            There is a definite disparity in the comfort level people have in the woods....those who have grown up in and around them and those who have only looked at them. Perhaps the camo discussion relates to this as well.

                            Steve
                            Lvl X TKO Automag PF/HL, Intelliframe, a Simmons 30mm Red Dot and a J&J 12" Ceramic barrel.
                            Crossfire 68/4500
                            -------------------------------------
                            Die Hard Woods Player

                            Comment

                            • cledford
                              Registered User
                              • Feb 2001
                              • 1386

                              #74
                              What REALLY bothers me about the camo thing is that people really feel that it give the sport a bad image. That perception is here to some extent, and is HUGE in the EU. As I stated earlier - it doesn't help when the DYEs of the world fuel this perception to sell more "colorful" items of apparel.

                              -Calvin
                              From a poster at PB Nation:

                              ""Jim, back to your cave. Bob Long is on the batphone..."

                              MY FEEDBACK

                              Comment

                              • shartley
                                paintball player
                                • Mar 2001
                                • 9169

                                #75
                                Originally posted by cledford
                                What REALLY bothers me about the camo thing is that people really feel that it give the sport a bad image. That perception is here to some extent, and is HUGE in the EU. As I stated earlier - it doesn't help when the DYEs of the world fuel this perception to sell more "colorful" items of apparel.

                                -Calvin

                                www.ShartleyCustoms.com
                                Custom Paintball Products and Accessories
                                CLICK HERE to Check out our PDU SERIES GEAR!


                                its more like a paper cut that has primadonna's yelling murder... - Glickman

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