Dead Mans Walk

[TDonovan]

I personally don't like DMW, but it is legal. If the people I played with did that kinda stuff, I wouldn't be likely to play with them anymore.

I get overshot however, ALL the time. I dunno what they think a guy with a pump is trying to pull, but even with my barrel condom on, the timmy behind bunker X just loves to paint my butt. I've got some nasty blood blisters and some sick scab that won't come off to show for it.

I personally will never attempt at DMW or encourage it in others. While it is tricky, it's not too much fun to have to worry about who's out and who isn't. I just like honest and friendly recreational play.

As for the mention about changing teams to eliminate someone distasteful, I HAVE done that before. A couple of guys (older than me by about 10-15 years) WOULD NOT stop cheating. I watched them wipe shot after shot off of their goggles. I confronted them in the staging area and told everyone it was them, but they still continued. I changed teams to observe... Once I noticed that they'd been hit by the other team (and wiped...) I rapped off shots at their butts until they left. It worked quite well, and was the only thing that got them to leave the game.

[Jack & Coke]

But what gives you the right to punish them???!!! hmmm??? (just kiddin' )

Great story!

"..I just like honest and friendly recreational play..."

[Barfly]

yeah shoot cheaters even if they are on your team. DMW is legal, so I have nothing against it, but if someone does it that person should always get a shot or two after they start walking to make sure they are dead. Doesn't mean you need to shoot them 20 times or switch teams and blast them. A little drunk (maybe a lot drunk) right now, hopefully this post makes sense.

[Tyger]

Originally posted by DocRock
What about your respondsibility to paintball Tyger? How many people are getting shot (already out of the game legally) because a select few people seem to pull enjoyment out of something that is borderline illegal.
How many people have gotten lit up the backside because of a player DMWing, how many people get shot regularly when they are out 'just to make sure'.

Hey, if I get to complain about getting lit up doing it, he can complain about people getting lit up from recieving it. The only problem is the argument holds no weight IMHO.

Lemme see, last footage I've seen of X-ball... In the little bit I saw, a guy gets bunkered and takes 5 from the first player who runs through, and at least 3-5 from the NEXT Player in line after he's already out. Both players were within 10 feet, if not closer I fail to see the diffrence here other than in one case they ran up on you, and in the DMW they stroll over to you. The end effect is the same, no matter how you slice it. The diffrence? I don't see it.

My "Responsibility" to paintball? Umm, I'm not sure how to reply to that, because it seems to me that you're playing on celebrity that's non existant. But I'll get to that in a moment. I'm obeying the rules, more than some people who have replied in here (NOT J&C, I think I understand his angle now because of my mis-interpretation / boneheadedness of the "Bonus Ball" phrase.) Suffice to say this :

If Chris LaSoya was on these boards, as an active poster, you'd all beat up on him for what he allegeldly did to that kid with trigger bounce. If Bob Long was actively posting on this board, you'd all flame him for something. If the nead of Brass Eagle came onto this board hyping some new VL-gun, I don't think there's enough bandwidth to handle the load of flames he'd get. Point is that when someone puts you on a pedistal, it makes it easier for the guy in the back to throw a rock at you.

(I edited this out to reduce the possibilities of dredging up REALLY OLD names and making a lot of people go "Woah, that goes way far back)

Originally posted by ~WarpedRT#2~

Freight training. Heres a nice one. How do you like that? Would you rather have someone DMW you, or have the other team freight train your whole team in to the dead box?? This too, is legal.

Umm, NPPL rules say it isn't. Sorry. That's been in there for a while. Now you CAN pull a LEGAL "Freight Train", but it's SO HARD to do, that you're GONNA get the team pulled for "playing on" unless your team members are perfect.

Originally posted by DocRock
As a 'big mover' within paintball you should be concerned about safety. The number one thing everyone in this game should be concerned about. By your actions you show that you aren't.

And as far as being a "Big Mover" in paintball? You're talking about me, right? I'm a nobody. Call Gino Posterivo or Jerry Braun or ANYONE at Brass Eagle or JT or Draxxus or DYE. They'll say "Rob Who?" Dude, I'm a rec player, not a tournament god. I have a video show I produce and star in because I'm cheap and always available. I write my own material (obviously). I do what I do to give back to paintball what I've gotten out of it. And I'm REALLY happy that people not only like the shows, but refrence to it for information.

But beyond that, I'm a rec guy. I'm not beating off sponsors with a stick. It wold be nice, It'd make my life a LOT easier. (Hmm, what jersey to take with me to this game? AHH! This one!) I'm grateful for AGD's support of the show, but beyond Tom's vision (a man who's living about 5 years ahead of the industry, IMHO) nobody in the industry has sat up and taken notice.

I'm not a big mover. I'm a player, just like you. I'm blunt honest because I'm afforded that luxury. I buy my FPO paint at $100 a case, pay my field fees, and fight off mosquitoes and burrs just like the rest of 'yall. So don't give me inflated delisions of grandure, I'm just like everyone else. Just ask anyone who IS a mover and shaker.

-Tyger

[Tyger]

wow... I guess my hockles ARE in a bunch, eh?

[islandboi]

not to change the subject but funny story about cheaters these guys were sitting in the back of the field just nailing their own players and when they were hit wiping so my friend was hit went to the ref to check it ref wiped it and said merry christmas now light up those derogatory statements in the back get everyone to do it those guys got lit up man... they're not really cheating though just being well immoral

[FallNAngel]

I think the DMW is perfectly legal move and great when done properly. Is there a rule that says you have to run from bunker to bunker? No. So, getting up and walking is fine too, right? So if someone gets up and you *think* they're out, how is that their fault? Now, if they're acting like their out (calling themselves out, gun up, whatever) then yeah, it's stupid. IMO, if you get DMW'd, it's your own fault.

Either:
A) You saw them, thought they were out and didn't do anything about it, in which case it's your fault for not being sure they were out
B) You didn't see them at all, in which case, it wouldn't have mattered if they walked or if that ran past you... you still wouldn't have seen them.

The only reason I can say this isn't a good thing to do in rec is because of the lack of use of armbands. Now granted, I haven't been to many fields, but the ones I have, didn't use armbands for rec play and you didn't have to go to a deadbox... you could just stand on the sidelines and watch. So really, you have no idea to begin with who's out other than who's not standing at a bunker.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by FallNAngel


...Now granted, I haven't been to many fields, but the ones I have, didn't use armbands for rec play and you didn't have to go to a deadbox... you could just stand on the sidelines and watch. So really, you have no idea to begin with who's out other than who's not standing at a bunker.

This has happened many times when I have played rec.

At Tombstone (CA), all the fields are really close to each other. When one group is waiting to start or walking from field to field, they are right on the sidelines or back to the field.

This kid with a rental gun (his first or second time playing) thought he was being 'smart' when we played the Civil War field (located right next the the entrance). He played 'back', and when our team advanced, it came down to 3 vs 1 (him). He slide back to the most rear bunker where all the spectator where standing. While we were all moving behind our bunkers, he got up and purposely stood right next to the spectators standing nonchalantly - blending in with the spectators.

Since he stood behind the bunker we could not see his feet.



and since he stood right next to the 10-20 spectators (who were on the side lines waiting for the next game), you had no-idea who was "in" or who was "out".

They all blended in and looked this same. Many of them had their barrel plugs in, some didn't. This kid ended up having his arms crossed so even if we knew he was in the game, we couldn't see his gun very well.

Even the ref lost track of who was left in the game, he was running around checking other bunkers.

In the end we all thought the game was over and walked up, looking for the ref's confirmation.

Then as we approached the group of spectators, the kid suddenly raised his gun and shoots all three of us.

We're all like WTF??? Why is a spectator shooting at us???

Then he starts laughing and pointing at his feet, which were just on the inside of the boundary rope laying on the ground. Of which, none of us could see since we were approaching from the opposite side of the log bunker.

In this situation, the fields were poorly layed out (sometimes you even get shoot, and are like WTF??? then you realize it came from the game right next to you).

I had a talk with this kid and told him that his act of 'pretending to be out' (in this case, acting like a spectator and not a part of the game) is very similar to a DMW.

This is where your opponent see you, but choose not to fire because, based on your body position, posture, manner, 'benefit of the doubt', and trust in the honor system, assumes you are not an eligible target.

I told him not to do it again or other people may get mad and light him up. He agreed and appologized. He said afterwards, that he was sorry and that he realized that his 'trick' was not cool in a friendly game based on the honor system.

[FallNAngel]

If he weren't standing with a group of spectators, I'd say it was fine. As is, I'd say that's iffy, only because even if you did want to shoot him, you may miss and start hitting spectators. Not the worst thing, but not the best either.

Everyone keeps talking about how it's a dishonorable move, but I don't see how. Unless you're claiming to be out (armband off, saying out, gun / arms up, etc) then it's YOUR fault for not keeping track of who's in / out and assuming he's out. Like I said, I don't think it's dishonorable in rec play, just not appropriate because you otherwise can't tell who's in / out without armbands.

[jdev]

as with alot of other peoples personal opinions on it, here's mine:

i've never had it done to me, though I've seen it done. ways to avoid it, shoot any player (not on your team) that does not have a barrel plug in, or their hand/marker raised. that is the safest way to make sure that they are out IMO.

[rudy]

this is astupid it is a cheap tactic nothing more.
think about it for what it will really be. it only works on "good" people so basically your screwing any decent sports in the game. is that what you want to do ina game?

and in the end it only has one solution everyone out there becomes an *** hole because people broke the trust of the game.

I had heard of this many times but not untill i had what felt was a very wrong expirence did i change my actions in these circumstances.

In the end there will be no one ever giving people the chance to surrender as well.

i learned this the hard way. i got ripped by an idiot i had clearly out skilled i asked him to surrender and he paused like he wanted to then shot me 3 times point blank. gg i said next time he was not offered to surrender and he felt all 3 inthe back, and from that day forward at a public field it didnt matter who it was i no longer offered the option i layed 3 paintballs in every players back. some newbies went off crying. but people who think that violating someones trust to gain a kill caused me to be hardened to that.

while no one pulled a deadmans walk on me after the prior instance, i from then on also changed my policy about dead players, if you dont have your barrel plug in, or your hand real high in the air and also yelling im out, i dont give you a second i hit you up untill you call out. Some people have cried, some been mad some genuinely lost a barrel plug and didnt deserve to get hit.

so what you need to do is ask yourself is the dead mans walk a skill or a risk? no its not its simple a violation of peoples trust that you are an honest player. and you will only successfully pull it off a couple times before it never works again against a single party.

I would trade it all to be back where, people fairly played the game but i know its never going back so im going to keep being an *** hat, unless its guys i personally know would never pull that. If you think dmw is a good tactic then in all fairness you should also feel that smart parts is a very good buisness with smart tactics as well. after all, they jsut play the hype, violate your trust they they can guide you correctly in gear choices =).

[Jack & Coke]

rudy,

Bravo!!!

Excellent post!

Also good analogy:

Originally posted by rudy


If you think dmw is a good tactic then in all fairness you should also feel that smart parts is a very good buisness with smart tactics as well. after all, they jsut play the hype, violate your trust they they can guide you correctly in gear choices =).

DMW = SP suing all electro gun makers

Sure they're both legal, but not very nice.

They both create a hostile, quick tempered condition of animosity.

[Sockman]

After reading Tyger's well-authored rant, I applauded (well, not literally). Very well done.

The Dead-Man's Walk is nothing more than a legal, albeit a pretty sneaky--though admittingly dirty--maneuver that, when utilized properly, can get you out of one hell of a jam (i.e. Big Game firefights; objectives). It can also spell a victory on an unsuspecting team.
There are, however, times when doing a DMW is somewhat morally inappropriate. The perfect example is, say, you versus a whole team of enthuiastic or nervous newbies, either way, very new to this sport. Now you go and pull a DMW --probably for the hell of it all and a quick laugh-- and take out their whole team in about five minutes or so with ease, because let's face it--they don't know any better.
Now you may have gotten a big rush and bragging rights for a few minutes (and it IS only about a few minutes), but what about the newbs you just massacred? Being in a slaughter isn't fun for any player, I don't care who you are. How fun would it feel to those kids who are more than likely playing in their very fist paintball game? It's not going to fill their hearts with joy and excitement. Contrarily, it'll make them resentful of both the players and the game as a whole, because in all honesty, who would want to play a game where the more experienced players take advantage of the new guys by pulling a stunt like that, much less pay for it? That's paying a stranger $35 to give you a black eye.

The field I work/play at has institutionalized a ruling on DMW'ing. It is no longer allowed in rec-ball due to the reasoning I just posted above. We all have decided that while it was a legal stunt, it was a cheap and fairly dirty thing to do to the new kids that spend their money to play with us, and possibly forsaking any future business from either them or their parents. Business 101: don't make the customer angry.

You see, I think DMW'ing is kind of funny. I just don't condone it when new players get wiped from one. Heck, I even coach some of them to shoot anyone who is walking down the sidelines toward them without their barrel sock on (You're supposed to have it on before you get to the Dead Box).

Okay. I'm done with my part.

[FallNAngel]

Originally posted by rudy
so what you need to do is ask yourself is the dead mans walk a skill or a risk? no its not its simple a violation of peoples trust that you are an honest player.

I'm still waiting to hear how it violates anyones trust. When done properly, you never declare yourself out. You're never removed from the game. If you think I'm out and I'm walking around with my armband on, barrel plug off and no one is coming to call me out, well, that's your fault, not mine. Pay more attention and it wouldn't happen.

Trusting me to say I'm out when I am.. yes, I can see that. Trusting me to say I'm in the game? Why? That's what the armband and lack of barrel plug signify... you're still in. It's not betraying trust, it's just people complaining because they want to just spray paint and not have to pay attention to who's in the game and who isn't.

[nippinout]

This isn't a matter of trust and honesty.

During a rec/scen/big game, someone can ask you your team or color of armband. You can't hide your armband. But you can lie. It isn't dishonest to say you are red, when you are blue.

You fooled the other guy, you didn't do something evil. But if he says, "I'm blue, what are you?" He could be lying too. That's part of the fun!

If I am doing a DMW, I expect to get shot. But getting lit-up or shot out of revenge is dumb.

When I see a player walking, I ask if they're out, any hesitation and I shoot. If the player is closer, I'll shoot without asking.

The player that is out and walking without his gun or hand raised should expect to get hit.

It isn't a matter of trust or honesty.

Remember the days of pumps? Unscrewing your 12gram a little to make it seem like you were out of CO2 was a tactic used to trick the other team.

Screaming that you are out of paint or your gun is jammed is another trick to draw people in closer, make them overconfident.

It isn't dishonest play. It's trickery, deception, and surprise.

I agree with Sockman, about noobs. You adjust your play to them. Charging their bunker and giving them 3 in the chest isn't going to be fun for them. But when I play my friends, I'm going to use every trick that I can to get paint on target.

Paintball is more than just speedball.