Looks like Glen Palmer might throw his hat in ...

[WARPED1]

I think this was a shot across the bow (sp)... basically a comment to back off rather than a threat of pending legal acton

Probably, but maybe he should press it a little, get the respect he desearves!

[Empyreal Rogue]

Typos/etc. always make for a professional letter.

Too bad there aren't any typos... I thoroughly checked through the letter and found none. I checked twice, in fact. But good try.

Like Brophog said, Palmer is only trying to calm the situation. K2 is enforcing something that isn't theirs to enforce and Glenn is putting an end to it. Though I would love to see Glenn push K2 around. Maybe even patent his idea and only charge WGP/K2 extra for producing the marker. Now THAT would be a slap in the face.

[hitech]

I'm sure Glenn has all the dates he invented the system recorded somewhere.

And some of us OLD guys can testify to those dates! I saw his prototypes LONG before the autococker came out.

[WARPED1]

...but palmer cant prove it..

I'm sure he can................ he's a smart man, after all, he invented autococking technology.

[MrWallen]

Ok, call me weird but this whole lawyer situation seems reminiscient of the Last Samurai plot. First, the paintball industry (ie the Japanese) have practices based on honor and stuff, then the lawyers (ie Western Civilization) comes over and starts messing things up.
Don't know why it matters, just something I was randomly thinking of.

[BlackHalo]

Glenn has mentioned many times that he has the 'previous art' to prove his claims. He just never needed or bothered to use it. Patents can be invalidated.

tell you the truth it doesnt matter unless palmer's name is on the patent...

lawyers dont care about people that stand up and say "HEY I INVENTED THAT!!!!!!" ...what they do care is the name on the patent...if im wrong please correct me if i am...i am a bit tired from work...Budd Orr's name is on the Autococking patent....with that said...that's all that matters in the legal world...unless palmer can prove that he truly invented the Autocking system and prove that Budd orr's patent is a P.O.S there's nothing anybody can do ...

all palmer is basically doing is crying and moaning about how Budd Orr stole his ****...but palmer cant prove it..so he writes letters like these to heal his tired old wounds...

not trying to flame palmer ...but unless he can prove it in a court of law...his letter is just that...a letter

[teufelhunden]

Too bad there aren't any typos... I thoroughly checked through the letter and found none. I checked twice, in fact. But good try.

cease and desists

there's one for ya right off the bat.

[ilikePB]

tell you the truth it doesnt matter unless palmer's name is on the patent...

lawyers dont care about people that stand up and say "HEY I INVENTED THAT!!!!!!" ...what they do care is the name on the patent...if im wrong please correct me if i am...i am a bit tired from work...Budd Orr's name is on the Autococking patent....with that said...that's all that matters in the legal world...unless palmer can prove that he truly invented the Autocking system and prove that Budd orr's patent is a P.O.S there's nothing anybody can do ...

all palmer is basically doing is crying and moaning about how Budd Orr stole his ****...but palmer cant prove it..so he writes letters like these to heal his tired old wounds...

not trying to flame palmer ...but unless he can prove it in a court of law...his letter is just that...a letter

He can prove it. Anyone that knows anything about paintball history knows that Glenn invented the auto cocking system, not Bud. He has many witnesses and documents to prove that he was the inventor, not Bud Orr.

[hitech]

Okay, here is an excerpt from Glenn's web site. You can decide for yourself.

I began putting "Camille" together in early August 1988 and it became a working model in Sept. '88. However, I didn't get a couple of bugs worked out of the automation system, namely the switch (4-way valve) and timing setup until late October...That is when it went into full time service but it did not look the way it does now until June, 1989...

It is my first semi that worked. My first attempt at a semi was very early in 1988. It was based on the "blow back" concept applied to a PMI pistol. That concept was quickly abandoned by me because it would have required that it be force fed, by a spring, from the standard magazine tube on top of the gun and it also turned out to not be very reliable or consistent in operation. I wanted to have a closed bolt system so I had to figure out a way to get the bolt to stop momentarily at the rear so the balls would have time to drop into place.

In all honesty here, I got the idea for my automation system from David Craig who was Mat Brown's partner in what was then Adventure Game Supplies, now TASO. He had a really strange looking prototype of an automated Sheridan at a tournament in New York. (it incorporated a very large regulator from a oxygen tank for welding torch and a 2-way valve hooked to a 1" dia., spring return cylinder)... The second one that I built was a double barreled version in a pistol format that wasn't a conversion but built entirely from scratch... Well, three months and $900.00 later I presented Dan with HUGO (the only hurricane that I could think of that was "badder" than Camile. Some of the things I learned from building HUGO led to my deciding to go ahead and begin building the Hurricane on a limited production basis.

Do you think it could qualify as *the* first semi-auto?

I think it qualifies as the first FUNCTIONAL, GRAVITY FED semi auto. Others have told me that they were working on a semi at about the same time but I have not seen anything that worked... Tippman's SMG came out in 1987 I believe, but I never did see it as an effective piece. The joke around here, even before Camille, was that using the SMG just made you a better target and easier to find... Balistically, the .62 cal paint just couldn't cut it and they didn't go to the .68 cal semi SMG until late '89 and the .68 Special (gravity fed) didn't show up until mid-1990. About the same time as the PMI-3. Both, the 68 Special and the PMI-3 were both introduced as prototypes at the first Bay City open in Vallejo in July 1990... I am fairly certain that Camille is the oldest living Gravity Fed semi. Gravity feed is the distinction that I claim "firsts" in along with "functional". I don't claim to have invented the first semi ; my claim is to have developed the system that made semi-auto a reality to this sport. I proved that gravity feed and semi-auto was possible and certainly the paintgun of the future, when most were telling me that it wasn't possible for gravity to keep up with the gun.

[ilikePB]

If he can...wouldn't he have had already? Shoot i know if i could prove it and somebody else has a patent on MY works and ideas...i would be working night and day to nullify that patent and have royalty fees...ESPECIALLY if im a small company...as royalties would insure the livelyhood of the company..i mean from what i know its been a LONG time running betweeing Budd Orr and Palmer...So apparantly palmer hasnt proved it yet...and he's had alot of years to do so...and again i say unless his name is on the patent it doesnt matter what palmer says...because K2 like SP they're pulling a smart business move wether you like it or not...becuase K2 inherited WGP's intellectual rights they technically ARE the owners of the Autococking technology...and can do what ever they want because of this ..and again i say ...Palmer's letter ..is just that.. a letter...

He hasn't because he isn't a money grubbing whore. Now that K2 is screwing other companies with there patent he's gunna help the other little guys out.

[hitech]

If he can...wouldn't he have had already? Shoot i know if i could prove it and somebody else has a patent on MY works and ideas...i would be working night and day to nullify that patent and have royalty fees..

Just because you would, doesn't mean someone else would. Glenn's work PROVES (via PRIOR ART) that any patent that K2 MAY HAVE (I don't believe they have a patent) is not valid. Also, Glenn showed his prototypes to LOTS of people. He has a lot to backup his claims.

[ilikePB]

I don't know, I might be wrong, but I think Glenn Palmer can do something about this, I guess we'll see.

[hitech]

personally i think if palmer can do that invalidate his patent..and be the rightful owner of the autococking technology then all power to him...it would rock the paintball industry..and SP would possibly stop their nazi rampagae...

SP's patent does NOT have anything to do with Glenn's work. If it did I would have been lobbing him hard to do something with it.

[Muzikman]

ahh i hate to double post..id otn even know if i am..but i just saw this post right after i posted my previous post...

but in response to that...if he has had "previous art" to prove his claims...then why doesnt he present that to invalidate Orr's patent and LEGALLY have a cease and desist against K2....the way i think K2 see's his letter is that he has no legal backing to his case...so they will dismiss it in mere seconds...and continue with what they are doing because it is their right to do so being now they are the intellectual owners of the Autococking technology.

personally i think if palmer can do that invalidate his patent..and be the rightful owner of the autococking technology then all power to him...it would rock the paintball industry..and SP would possibly stop their nazi rampagae...

You are missing one VERY big thing...Bud Orr DOES NOT have a patent on the "Autococking" system. What Bud Orr has is a copyright/trademark on the name "Autococker". There is NO patent out there for the operation of an autococker (or the semi-auto Palmer guns).

[Destructo6]

Neither of them have a patent to enforce. "No more than one year after coming to market" was about 13 years ago.

Glenn's claim could muddy the waters enough to make winning in court against AM look highly questionable to K2. Glenn's threat of a "cease and desist" would ruin WGP or set up a court battle that neither want. Hopefully, they'll back off.

This sort of thing, unfortunately, is what happens when real money is brought into a previously small time industry. A handshake and one's word no longer cut it.

The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
Bill Shakespeare