Looks like Glen Palmer might throw his hat in ...

[DK1]

I don't want to wait 8 years for a custom shop to cut my barrels down. I also didn't like slip fit on my old Promaster, threads is the way to go. Plus there would already be a multitude of choices out.

I took my barrels to a machine shop. Got them back in 2 days. Plus, it allows you to buy really dirt cheap close out barrels (like for ICD threads). I remember you could get boomsticks and such dirt cheap like that.

DK1

[ilikePB]

Glenn,

I mean what I am about to say with all due respect. I love your work and you are a fantastic man. While I don't support what K2/Worr/BE is doing, I do understand it.

Here is my problem with your statement: Where is the relevance?

(Perhaps I don't have a good enough understanding of the acse at hand) K2 has asked Action Markers to stop making their pump, not because it is in violation of a patent (because there is no patent on the auto-cocking marker) held by WORR or anyone else but because it violates trademarks and looks too much like the Sniper marker.

That seems like a valid reason to ask someone to stop making a marker. If AGD started making a mag that looked IDENTICAL to your Blazer, I would hope and expect you to ask AGD to stop making the marker, because it is too much like yours. While the internals may be 100% different, the outside is the same. I would hope you would ask AGD to stop. If they didn't, I would expect you to file a lawsuit against them. Not that you want to hurt AGD, but your comapny has rights too.

please let me know where I've gone wrong. Did you invent the autococking system that made Budd Orr rich? yes. Can you sue anyone for making a marker that uses it? No.

Thanks Glenn. I'd love to hear back from you...


Kevin Cullen

You answered your own question it seems to me. If Glenn can't sue Budd for the cocker design thing, why can, according to you, K2 sue, or threaten with, AM for making a similar looking marker?

[Muzikman]

Kev, you bring up a good point and something I had asked Craig about at IAO when he had told me that Glenn wrote a letter. I never really got an answer.

That being said, K2 has sent letters to a lot of people, not just AM-P. Some of those things were based on the cocking system. So, though that letter does not change why K2 is going after AM-P, it goes help the other companies that K2 will or are going after for the "auto-cocking" system.

[Paladin]

First off, a patent is not a prerequisite for litigation in such matters.

Secondly, I'm not about to let all the cats out of the bag until it can be made a matter of fact in the public record. I'll tell the whole story, if/when it becomes absolutely necessary and when both sides of the issue can be challenged in depth for factual content; Thus making possible, a fair and reasonable judgement by the finder of fact.

With that, I'll just say that from my point of view, Mr. Orr has no legitimate right to be suing anyone over anything regarding Paintball equipment designs, inventions or developments, and my intelectual properties are just one part of the big picture.

Please keep in mind that all I really did was request that K2 reevaluate their position as it is likely that they didn't get everything they bargained for in their aquisition WGP's assets.
If they wish to pursue their current course of actions and actually try to prosecute this nonsense, my participation will help keep things in the proper perspective and belie most of their claims. The ball has been in their court for some time now and they have yet to respond.

[WARPED1]

I really hope you "win" Glenn. You have my moral support and all due respect as a leader in the industry.

[penguinpunk555]

Hell yea Glenn P.

[Kevmaster]

Glenn,

I certainly wish you the best. I don't like these frivilous law suits in any setting (paintball or other), but the intellectual property that Bud is fighting over, as I read it, is not the autococker design. It is the look and design of the Sniper marker, something he did invent. Yes, he modded his Sniper to be a cocker after your design. but AMP's design is similar to that of a Sniper, not a cocker.

As I mentioned above, if AGD made their mag in a body that was identical to yours, I would expect you to talk to AGD and ask that they reconsider their actions. They would be violating your trademarks on your blazer, lets say. The internal design could be 100% different, but I think it would still be illegal for AGD to make such a product.


Thanks for the discussion

(And for the record, I would support your standing up for AMP and helping end the nonsense all around the country in bull**** lawsuits. Its a waste of time and energy for everyone)

[Kevmaster]

First off, a patent is not a prerequisite for litigation in such matters.
With that, I'll just say that from my point of view, Mr. Orr has no legitimate right to be suing anyone over anything regarding Paintball equipment designs, inventions or developments, and my intelectual properties are just one part of the big picture.

and just to be sure I understand you correctly, does WORR have the right to stop System X, et all, from calling their markers Autocockers?

[Paladin]

I'm not really in this to "win" anything beyond the satisfaction of doing the right thing.

Call a spade a spade and keep ALL the cards on the table. This game is not going to be played with a stacked deck if I can help it.

[Brophog]

I'm so glad we didn't let this get out of hand!

[Paladin]

and just to be sure I understand you correctly, does WORR have the right to stop System X, et all, from calling their markers Autocockers?

That would have to be determined by a finder of fact (judge/jury) under the rights of the holder of a Trademark. As to the letter of the law, he certainly has some rights in that regard. However, again from my point of view, I can see no ethical legitimacy to his cries of woe when he is trying to protect a false image developed through misleading advertising.
So many wrongs just can't make it right; no matter how you slice it.

[SpecialBlend2786]

I don't think he has any plans to push it. Glenn isn't after money or fame, if he was, he'd have pushed the subject a long time ago. He just wants K2 to realize that they, in trying to force other people out for intellectual property that they do not have, are wrong, and as such, K2 needs to realize this and cease.

That's all that letter is trying to do.

Exactly what i think

[The Pinata]

Stick it to 'em Glenn. They shouldn't be ordering Cease and Desists to companies about a technology that they only like to let people believe they invented. Companies like K2 came into paintball just because they realised that there was money here, and they are here to eat up all the smaller companies right now. AGD has been smart in moving out of any areas where it is at risk of lawsuits, but a lot of companies such as BE, WGP, and Tippmann have become absorbed by larger companies.

[Paladin]

Glenn,

It is the look and design of the Sniper marker, something he did invent.

Just how sure are you of that ? The last time he claimed infringement of "Trade Dress" the case was dismissed, with predjudice, so that argument doesn't hold alot of water.
Yes, he modded his Sniper to be a cocker after your design. but AMP's design is similar to that of a Sniper, not a cocker.

So then what you are saying is that it is OK for Bud to copy whatever he wants, and call it his own, and then call foul when someone else does their thing that vaguely resembles something that wasn't an original idea in the first place? I think not.
What is good for the goose has to be just as good for the gander. Com on now, be reasonable. Call a spade a spade and let there be some "honor amoung thieves"

As I mentioned above, if AGD made their mag in a body that was identical to yours, I would expect you to talk to AGD and ask that they reconsider their actions. They would be violating your trademarks on your blazer, lets say. The internal design could be 100% different, but I think it would still be illegal for AGD to make such a product.

Well, since my equipment isn't about how it looks, I would be duely honored if one of Toms projects came out with a resemblance to something I build. Geez, I've had so much of my work copied in one way or another for so many years that I've gotten quite used to it. In fact I'm usually flattered by it. It's even more to my liking when some folks focus their product on trying best me with false claims. Consider the not so "self adjusting" Sledgehammer regulator that "was designed to crush a Rock": Sadly, it could do neither and it was just another copied product added to the list. (copied from outside of Paintball, actually a fuel system regulator)

Thanks for the discussion

(And for the record, I would support your standing up for AMP and helping end the nonsense all around the country in bull**** lawsuits. Its a waste of time and energy for everyone)

The threatening letter that was received by AMP just happened to be the one that I got a chance to read. I was thoroughly disgusted by it and it made no difference whatsoever who was threatened. I'm actually just "standing up for" what I think is right. In my estimation, WGP/K2 is far more wrong than most of those that they threaten. Therefore I chose sides against them and not with anyone inparticular.

[RingOfScale]

wait ... that Orr really steal a marker out of glenn palmers bag like that guy upper in the thread say so ? or were u kidding ?