Lets Discuss Accuracy vs Fragile Paint

[AGD]

Learned Scholars of AO,

Now that we have covered barrel theory and statistical analysis etc. we can discuss some real world situations for the next generation of guns we are developing.

We have several different manufacturers guns on the gun dyno right now spanning the performance range. We are coming to a decision point on which performance envelope to point toward. Here are the some of the considerations;

Low pressure ball acceleration, commonly found in the low pressure guns by default. Best config. for fragile paint. Uses more air because the ball takes longer to accelerate. Our testing is showing that low pressure acceleration is less consistent in velocity. Longer bolt close time takes away from ball drop time.

Medium pressure ball acceleration, commonly found in markers with 4-600 psi working pressure. This still falls in the range considered to be good on fragile paint but not the best. Much better on efficiency is a big bonus. Shorter bolt close time allows for more reliable high firing rates. Faster ball acceleration is showing more consistency in testing.

So for purposes of discussion, since we know that consistent velocity directly contributes to better accuracy (let's hope there are no arguments there) which direction would you think to go and why? If you had two identical markers, one handled fragile paint better but was less accurate or the other shot straight but had barrel breaks more often which would it be for you?

AGD

ps This is not about other markers, this is all in theory.

[Russ]

Tom,

I would most definitly like to see guns that are more tolerant to brittle paint, i.e. low pressure. The industry trend is to make paint that breaks every time on your opponent, and unfortunatly that means more breaks in the gun.

You pose the question of better accuracy, with a "harsher" cycling, which is harder on the paint. Or less consistency (read, accuracy) but easier on paint.

Well, perhaps I'm just too greedy, but what I want is consistency AND no ball breaks/chops! But given the choice, at this point in my VERY limited paintball experience, I want a gun that is easy on paint. Accuracy is a moot point when your swabbing your barrel!

Even though you ask not to specifically discuss individual guns, it's been my experience (again, limited) that while my E-Mag is breaking paint, my son's GenX-3 'cocker just keeps shooting away. We shoot the same paint, under the same conditions. My son often "reminds" me of this fact. My initial excitement over my E-Mag is waneing. My faith is being tested. I want guns that are gentle on paint. I want to stay in the game, not swab my barrel.

Russ

AGD edit: Standby Russ we hear you.

[Oregon_pb_]

I think a, hmm, lets make up a company so not to pick any one specifically. Lets call it "DGA". Lets say DGA has mastered the high pressure range of guns, they have markers that can shoot 25 shots per second with no shoot down. What should they master next?

In my vast array of paintball experience (8 + years ) most players don't need the capability of shooting that fast, alot are happy with pulling strings of 8 balls per second. With these players in mind i would hope DGA would invest in going low pressure for their new project. Get the operating pressure around 100-200 psi. It may not 20 bps, but it will be alot easier on paint.

Knowing DGA has a long history of excellent quality i'd buy there new Project X if they went low pressure with it.

[toymyster]

I would have to go with ability to handle brittle paint!!! And for the accuracy, I'll make it up in volume!!!!

[BlackVCG]

Well, with the paint drop testing, we've already established that paint is getting more brittle in general for obvious reasons. Where paint will go from here is hard to say, but I can't see it getting anymore brittle, or else paint will be breaking in shipping more often than acceptable.

Ball breaks flat out annoy the crap out of me and if there was a gun that NEVER broke paint or on the ratio of about 1 in 5 cases I'd be satisfied. Breaking paint means your accuracy goes down the tube and you're down until you can get the barrel cleaned. So to have a more accurate marker, but it brakes paint more often, in effect cancels out the positive attribute of being more accurate because it's only accurate for so long before it breaks paint (I'm kinda going towards the extreme side in this case).

However, look at the extreme on the other side of the spectrum and you have a gun that never breaks paint, but has the accuracy of one case = one kill.

The obvious choice is to find somewhere in the middle that gives both the benefits of consistency and minimal ball breakage. I however, would lean slighty more towards the focus on ball breakage by making a gun that can shoot 99% of all paints with minimal to no breaks, yet maintain a reasonable level of consistency.

For two reasons. Paint is getting more brittle these days and if you're going to be able to shoot it and get it out of the barrel ALL the time, you need a gun designed to shoot it. Secondly, I personally would sacrifice a level of accuracy if that meant I wouldn't have to be cleaning the barrel a few times per day. As you've stated before, this will always be a game of accuracy by volume. So make a gun that can put out that volume without breaking any paint.

[BlackVCG]

Damn Russ, you and I were typing the same thoughts, but you were a bit quicker.

[kilaueakid]

Boy, This really is a tough one. Especially considering paintball manufactures are producing more and more weak paint. I think this trend is going to continue especially for the tournament players where every hit counts and you don't want bouncers. Fragile paint=less bouncers. In theory, they are directing the way markers operate(high pressure/low pressure) based on the strength of the paintballs.

I guess the ultimate direction to go would be to make a marker that you can adjust it from operating in low pressure for those days when all there is is fragile paint, and high pressure for days when you have excellent paint and are aiming for better air efficency, more stable velocity, and higher rates of fire.

If it would be impossible to make a marker that can switch from low to medium pressure, I guess my vote would have to go toward the medium pressure. I would rather have the more consistent velocity/better accuracy with an occasional barrel break.

Anti-chop eyes are going to eliminate many, many gun/ball breakage problems. I have already seen it with my gun. I have averaged about 1 barrel breaks/case2000 with 1-2 drop pmi paint. I would imagine even the lowest operating guns on the planet barrel break paint once in awhile.

Something alittle off topic. I notice I rarely get nasty welts anymore. Most the time it doesn't sting like it used to either. Could this be that back in the day 10 years ago paint was harder? Sometimes I hardly even feel it when I get hit. Anyone else notice this?

I have used markers with lower operating pressures...one in particular, I won't mention any names but it starts with a capital A, and I didn't notice it being any nicer with fragile paint.

Kila

[FooTemps]

I'd say make a med pres gun in the lower part of that pres spectrum so about 400-450 psi. That way it can handle paint ok but it still can maintain accuracy. Well, at least I think it's how it works. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[kilaueakid]

Hey Foo...
I think we already have that with the mag!!!

[Bluntman]

Obviously my opinion doesn't matter since everyone disagrees, but I would rather have accuracy and just have to use harder shelled paint. But low pressure would sell more guns so go with that. I'll just have to design my own gun...

[AGD]

I would like to hear more comments on what an adjustable pressure marker would be worth to you.


AGD

[kilaueakid]

HAHAHA,.....so it is possible!!!

Well I guess It would be worth my squeegees and swabs.....all of them, I'll even throw in the laynards!!

Awesome feature if it could be done. Assuming you could icorporate it into the RT valve, or something similar.

Go for it Tom, now you are on the right track. Versitility.

Kila

[MajorDamage]

I'd take the 400-600 PSI gun for the first two, I like a faster more accurate gun ! But an adjustable pressure marker!? THAT WOULD RULE! I'll give you my spyder ! OH! And Tom, could you hook my MB STINGER up to that Gun Dyno of yours!?

ENDO!

[FooTemps]

lol... Well, I was thinkin about the mag when I made my opinion...

[AGD]

Ok I guess I am going to have to get more specific here. You guys are discussing a good gun vs a bad gun, I am talking about two good guns.

The difference is between the Angel and the Impulse. The Angel shoots at a higher pressure than the Impulse. If you were going to choose between those two markers, based on what I told you above, which would you choose. Look at it another way, if I had a two magic wands, one that made your mag shoot like an Angel or one that made it like an Impulse which would you buy?

AGD