Lets Discuss Accuracy vs Fragile Paint

[Gecko]

garg i have a foamie bolt on my emag and it still breaks tons of paint.....
Gecko

[Bonx0007]

We are talking about inconsistancy. The inaccuracies of the ball will probably only be seen in the distance. We derive this theory based on the paint to barrel match. Rely on the freak and your shots should still be in the same tube, however using low pressure you might see some drop off a tad or something like that. I believe that if AGD made the X project low pressure you would have tourny players eating it up. The inaccuracy that Tom speaks about I believe will probably be undetectable to most players. Tom do you have the range of inaccuracy of low pressure compared to the range of inaccuracy compared to a mid pressuer gun?

[sylver]

No Breaks!

I must say that I am in favour of not having paint break in my barrel. I'd rather put out a few more balls to correct my aim than have to take time out to clean my barrel.

[giant1515]

lp vs mp

I personally have had no problems with my mag now, 2 cases (PMI advantage stuff)of paint and not a single break (I just got it in early december), barrel or breech. Solid accuracy and great speed.

As far as the future goes, everyone seems to be into low pressure operation. I don't like it as much because most of the lower pressure guns can turn into gas hogs quickly, shocker and matrix for example. air is of interest to me because not everywhere I play has refills... so when the air is out, i'm done. I've heard that the excaliburs are low pressure with high efficiency, but i've never seen it. That would be a good thing I think. you don't lose the air, but you get the aura of "low pressure operation".

If brittle paint is going to become more and more the norm for even rec play, i'd pay the extra for an adjustable system, shoot whatever paint there is and leave the swabs in the prep area. I'll be forever behind AGD now, so whatever you make, I will most likely try.

[Maghog]

We've had the most brittle paint of them all, and we put it to the test with all kinds of guns. In the end, none of them could shoot this paint.
Interestlingly, all breaks in my mag were barrel breaks...not one drop of paint on the bolt. The same was true with Shockers and low pressure cockers.
No one could shoot this paint, no matter how low the pressure of the system was.
I don't know if this says anything besides the fact that the paint was really bad, but I thought it might be worth mentioning.
If I had the choice, I'd be using a weapon that puts out the consistency and therefore accuracy. I have little ball breakage with my mags as it is, so low pressure won't do much for me there.
Adjustable pressure intake possibilities sound interesting, but unecessary.

[dawump]

With my mag the only time I've broken paint alot I've also noticed broken paint in my pods and even loader. THAT is brittle paint. I havn't had much problems with just barrel breaks.

The problem isn't that a marker breaks paint though it is that it then requires time and effort before being reliable again.. and maybe that is something to focus on. If the paint industry continues to do what it is doing then the marker industry will be playing a never ending game of catch-up. Looking at ALL the trends I see in paintball in five years we may therefore be looking at very low pressure markers and shooting much much more fragile paint to overcome accuracy IF THE GOAL IS TO NOT BREAK PAINT.

Well that sucks so maybe it's time to think out of the box.

As paint becomes more fragile perhaps it is time to change the thought from "how do we create a marker which doesn't break paint" to "how do we create a marker which can DEAL with broken paint".

This could either be done with use of special materials like many barrel manufacturers are focusing on, and / or a mechanism to activate a cleaning cycle on the marker, either using air or anything else.

Keith

[booyah]

My take on this

I've shot mags, cockers, bushys, angels, RT's and blowbacks.

I've had paint so brittle it broke in my hopper from running to my opening bunker. didnt slam into anything, wasnt shooting, it just broke from a run.

I was shooting that paint all day in my mag and had no breaks in the barrel, only one chop (and that dang hopperful that went down the drain on me)

I love the mags the best todate of any of the guns I have ever shot, they never let me down.

but on the question of a gun that is more likely to break paint, but be more accurate, or a gun that is less likely to break paint but less accurate, I would opt for a gun that broke the least paint.

Give the option between a gun that is more likely to break paint, be more accurate, and CLEAN ITSELF easier (aka shoot clean) thats the way i would go.

Also Tom, if you could make a gun that could go low pressure/high pressure on the mag frame, i would say go for it. If you cant that is interchangeable with the mag valve, i would say backup, and consider a differnt design... the mag is a great design, but it does seem to have a few (VERY FEW) inherit design flaws... the bolt speed and the inability not to chop if the ball and bolt contact in the breach is a big one...


-Booyah

[Temo Vryce]

Accuracy vs. No Goo....

Marker A doesn't break paint or maybe 1 ball per case, but has grouping of about 12" at 50'

Marker B Breaks paint at a ratio of about 1 in 100 - 200 balls but has a grouping of about 4" at 50'


Personally I would go with Marker A because I don't carry a sqeegie. Now if you were using a barrel like the RamRod, and you were still able to get the same accuarcy then I would use the Marker B and just shoot through the breaks.

I realise that 12" at 50' might not be as inaccurate as you were think of but it gives me a base line to work from. I play speed ball for the most part so it's not likely that I'm going to pop out from my bunker take one shot and duck back in. I'm going to take a few shots to make sure that I hit my target. Paintballs aren't very accurate to begin with and they aren't going to be getting much more accurate than they all ready are. So Paint handling is going to become more and more important. Getting the paint handling undercontrol and then work on the accuracy.

It's kinda like what I tell all the new players that say that they want to learn to shoot fast. "Learn to shoot straight and hit your target first, speed will come with time."

I hope this help you some what Tom.

[Nitroduck]

Lets see.

I hate to dis-aggree with Tom, but just because a gun runs low pressure does not always mean it will consume more gas. It also doesn't *typically* mean it will break less balls.

Ball breakage can be said for 2 things and 2 things only.

1. Short Stroking
2. ROF/hopper matchup.

As we all know.....Short stroking has been generally solved by electronic microswitches and a computer to control the cycling...And not a human finger...

Bad problem is, with electros, they are typically faster and because of this, it can still suffer chopping/barrel breaks because most of the olden day hoppers couldnt keep up with the ROF of earlier Angels.

Think about these guns and which ones have been tagged for "chopping alot"

Matrix - I've heard so many people chop with these guns out of the box. When you add a trinity LPR...It gets better.

Main reason : stock BPS setting of 16bps.....Most people will not lower it, even when they do , it's minimum ROF is 12bps....Which is slightly faster than some hoppers out there. Add a very nice trigger which the matrix has, you can easily max the board out and cause massive chopping.

Angel LED - I can remember so many people claming Angels chop really bad with thiers...And as far as I can remember, the old LEDs were set at around 13bps stock. As for my personal Angel, I KNOW that the reason is the BPS setting. If I run my 12v non-X, non-turbo at 14bps or above and get on the trigger, I can guarentee a chop every 50 rounds. Set it at 11bps, and it goes down to about once every 1 case (unfortunately, I havent put enough paint through it to find out how often it will break with 11bps settings)

Emags - I've heard quite a few people also claim that these guns chop alot. We know they dont? Why? We respect our Emags, and dont use the full potential of the ROF and wont chop.....

How about guns that have been quoted as not chopping alot?

Autococker - most people say these guns dont chop/break balls that often.......However, I've noticed less people complaning about them not chopping only in the past year....No reason why. As far as I can remember, Cockers don't have a speed demon trigger like most Mags do....Most owners can only top off 5-7bps when they can....Could that be a reason as to why people dont chop? I know I respect my Autocockers ROF and only shoot 5-7bps..Because of that, I broke one ball in October....That was after about 5+ cases of paint.....Why'd it break a ball? I tried to shoot too fast.

Excaliburs - Goto a Excalibur owners group, see how often people chop. Most owners claim they can go 10 cases w/o a ball chop...Whys that? Is it the stock ROF setting of 10.5bps? The low pressure? It might be the low pressure, the Excaliburs can run rather low on cocking pressure....Because of that, I believe it's less harmfull on a ball (I've seen people stick thier fingers down the feed tube of a Excal and let me pull the trigger to my hearts content and they didnt even flinch. Can you do that with a Emag or Angel?)

Shockers - One of the first "dont break paint" guns....Smart Parts claimed it was because of the fact it was deep low pressure. I propose its simply because of the 11.25bps settings and the fact that the stock triggers are rather hard to get up to that ROF.

As for Impulses, Bm2ks, Tribals, Intimidators, ect. Most of these guns are 13-14bps all of which have anti chop eyes or anti-chop eye options. I've learned that even with a ACE , it still breaks paint, both possible in the breech (oval paint will register in the ACE and get caught) or it still can suffer barrel breaks.

Also, with the term LP = more accuracy

The only reason one gun has more accuracy (Im reffering to the STOCK models) is simply because the company designed the gun to have a nice regulator/barrel on it stock making it harder for a newer player to get a 'bad accuracy gun' ...Most people say Angels aren't accurate....Its simply because the stock reg needs to be broken in , the fact the gun has been packed with a huge ammount of lithium grease, and then finally the barrel hasn't been the greatest. My Angel shoots great and accurate....Despite of what others say.

As for this LP meaning lower consistancy. I'm reminded of my Autococker. My Autococker can run extremely thin shelled paint with ease (even though my gun isnt exactaly SLP.....350psi or so), I still can get 2k shots off a full 68/45 fill. I can use any paint made, from the crappiest brass eagle and competition, to hellfire, marbs and beyond and I still will get +/- 2fps at worst over the chrony.

Just remember Tom, ever think that when you put a gun into lower pressure, the regulation system really wasn't designed for it going low pressure? I can think of a few systems which can starve themselves at high ROFs and low pressure, and guns that wont starve themselsves at high ROFs and low pressures....

Also need to remember, gun prerfection can't make up for morons who believe other companies ads.....Even if they are real. Some people will just never figure out that you can't run a gun at 20bps when your using a stock VL-200 hopper..Even if the gun is 100psi.

[Royal Assassin]

I've seen the video...

Ok, in the 720 vid they showed us AGD is making paintballs for the law. They also showed us that mammoth corridor... might I remind you of the dents in the door at the end of that corridor? I know, those were plastic shells.

Now that AGD has perfected the marker side of it, why not work on the balls?

So my question is... Why not develop balls? Surely they haven't been "perfected".

just my $.02

Sorry for straying of the line of questioning.

Jason

[Paintchucker]

Dually Adjustable Valves ???

This is a very intriguing concept... Much like we have Freak Barrels that can be tuned for the size of the pb, it would be wonderful if we had a valve system, that in addition to being adjustable for velocity, was adjustable for the output pressure/volume.

Could this be done by simply adding one of those little thing like on angels and spyders called a volumizer? Put a smaller one on to get higher pressure/lesser volume/better consistancy for less brittle paint, and then swap out for a bigger one for lower pressure/higher volume when you had more brittle paint.

Another idea, which would take a total valve redesign would be to make the back of the MAG valve have inserts for two sizes of hex wrenches. The first would act like today and change the velocity and the second would change the volume/pressure.

As many of the high end paintball guns cost in excess of $1000 anyway, just having the option of a seperate valve system would be a good idea. Buy the gun in a medium pressure/medium volume like it is today, and then buy an add-on valve for $250 that was low pressure/high volume...

[dawump]

I don't think the issue is whether or not there are perfect paintballs it's whether or not the field or tournament you show up at uses them.

If tournaments were Bring your own paint then we'd bring paint that matches the mag.

Keith

[hitech]

It depends (doesn't it always?) on how much less accurate verses how many more breaks. If I could decrease the shot group by four inches and increase the breaks by 1 in 1000, then great. If the shot group decreases by 2 inches and the breaks increase by 1 in 500, then probably not. If the shot group decreases by 1 inch and breaks increase by 1 in 250, then absolutely not.

In general I want the most accurate gun I can get that only breaks 1 in 1000 balls or so. As a side note, to me, left to right accuracy is more important that top to bottom accuracy.

[apache]

Good post Nitroduck, I can see experience talking there.

It seems that there's 2 trends going on here: part of the people want a gun that shoots very accurately at long ranges with good air efficiency but they don't mind whether the ball breaks on target and others want a marker that shoots fast, not very accurately but the ball MUST break on target, not in gun. If you want to please both of them, you have to make 2 guns, a rec-game and a tournament gun

If we go in the fantasy gun department, I'd like to have a gun that would never break paint inside, could shoot at least 800 balls with my 3000 psi 68 ci Max-Flow and the speed would stay in 285-295 fps area (no chrono penalties!!). I play tournament ball at the front so I don't shoot farther than maybe 30 meters in a 5 man game. And I'd like to have a gun that's different from the other people's guns... either by only looks or whole another brand

[dorksquad]

in my mind i can make anything (weather i have the funding or not is a whole nother story all together)
anyway i think that it would be fairly easy to make a valve system like the old level 5,or 6 mags like in the video where the power tube can be disconected and then you could chance the air chamber size (freak barrell style) by replacing the chamber and reattaching the pt assy and reg, then you could use a larger chamber to fire at low pressure and a nsmaller one to fire at higher pressure, sure this may sound over kill but it would probly make people happy and if the brittle paint monster ever dyes we can go back to our high pressure guns. hell i might just make one if i could get my hands on some old valves like that or some cad drawlings of mags.