Lets Discuss Accuracy vs Fragile Paint

[kilaueakid]

I haven't used an impulse enough to make a good judgement call on which of the 2 I thought was better.

[Oregon_pb_]

use the wand and make me an impulse pressure mag like dealio.

I'll expect it next tues on my door step. thanks!

[Failure]

Well I mean do both guns hit with the same force? It drives the ball the same distance in the long run so does lower pressure really benifit considering you need more air? Doesn't an angel finally shoot at 80-90 psi from the lpr? What does a shocker shoot at or impulse? If the bolt hits at the same force then the paint would be the leading factor in comparing ball breakage in guns. Im asking as a novice not as someone that actually knows what hes talking about.


Ahh just reread the original post describing the differences.

[RobAGD]

Well both guns have problems.

On my team alone I have guys that angels never break paint and guys that cant get a hopper outthe end of the tube with out a break.

Same deal with Impys. I have a guy with 2 1 breaks the other dosent.

At the shop I have seen both ends of the spectrum.

I am personally happy with my Mag. I can shoot what ever paint I want and have very few breaks. Then again I have some customer that cant get paint out the end of the tube on thier Emags but there classic is fine. It's most weird.

-Robert

[Bad Dave]

What about barrel pressure? before I heard Tom say that the mag has one of the lowest barrel pressures, is that not what counts?

I do not think pressure shooting the ball matters as long as it is below 500psi lets say. What does matter is the bolt movement pressure, even with 90psi moving the angel bolt it can still chop(and does). With the superbolt can you try a different spring combination to reduce the bolts pressure on the ball?

From my experience quality of paint is what counts most of all, any brand can be both good and bad due to the stock practices of people who buy the paint. Need a sell by date and also some come ack against paint sellers.

For instance under the sale of goods act in the UK products have to be fit for the purpose intended and of merchantable quality. I would say poor quality paint is worth nothing then as it is neither fit for purpose or of sufficient quality...

However if you take it back to the guy you bought it off it will be, "its the paint I get given" or "must be your gun"

Most guns are quality paint on the other hand is not.

[[NA]WARLORD]

Even if ya could make a lower operating marker, what about all the upgrades for the Impulse such as delrin bolts, lightened hammers, pins etc.etc.etc. Have ya taken those into consideration, esp. with all the hybrid Impy's on the market i.e. Freak-Factory, Planet Eclipse, Demonic, have you checked out any of the steps they have taken to improve on the Impy's performance as well? I have a suggestion for new bolt, how about a Foamie Superbolt? wouldnt that be effective as say a whole new operating system? Geez, I just upgraded to R/T valve not too long ago, would said system be interchangable with it? Cost is a major influence on some of us as well as the young and newer players as well, we just cant afford all the latest ge-gaws and widgets, that make last months upgrades obsolete. I will always support AGD and their fine products as they have never (well 99% of time) failed me.....

[kenshinkandon]

I would like a gun that is more accurate and consistent compared to a gun that is low pressure and less consisent. reason being if I could take out a person with a average of 1 to 3 shots I would shoot less paint there by creating less of a chance for paint to break. Compared gun to a that I could shoot 8 to 10 shots on and not worry about breaking paint, my choice would be the more accurate one over the less consisent one.

But I do feel my opinion is the less popular one due to the overwhelming demand for more BPS both with markers and feeding systems look at how popular the warp feed is along with the HALO everyone is hyped about.

[Gecko]

a couple of my observations
Emag
i love this gun, if only she wasn't so picky about paint. Fast reliable and accurate. The only thing is this doesn't do me much good if i am squeegeing for half the game.
Shocker
Just something about the way these shoot. So gentle on paint, it will shoot almost any paint with little or no fuss. Very consistent with freak and maxflow but slow and a gas hog.
Excalibur
Not quite as easy as shocker on paint. Regualrly get +-2 fps with decent paint. Extreemly gas eficent and fairly fast. I had my first barrel break on case 8 and first chop on case 13. Gun itself is picky, must be fed new 9 volts almost every day of play and very sensitive to LPR and Firing pressure. At the moment this is my choice for my tourney marker, if only my emag wasn't so fussy on paint.

In general the market does seem to be moving to brittler paint. I am a fat man and used to catch alot of bounces, they have slowly becom more and more rare.
I think given the choice i would take a impulse over an angel. The gun is fast enough that i can make up for any diff in accuracy with a hail of paint instead of squeeging every other hopper. Overall give me the gun that does not break paint be it in the breech or in the barrel.
Gecko

[luke]

Personally I hate trade offs. To trade one problem for another doesn't really fix anything.

It sucks to be tucked in tight on the 50 yard line trying to get your gun cleaned out, (or worse, on the 30 ) but it also drives me nuts to miss that shoe or barrel sticking out from behind a bunker. 30 balls for 1 elimination, when it should only take 2 isn't really tolerable either.

I will probably take some criticism for this, but don't take it the wrong way. I'm a loyal Mag user. I believe in the technology and I like the direction it's going, I also understand with high performance you will always make some sacrifices. But, I never owned a squeegee until I purchased my first Mag. My first gun, which I used for one day and then sent it back to whoever it was that I ordered it from, was a Stingray. (didn't know any better, I purchased it before I played my first game of Paintball.) I then ordered my next gun which was a VM68. I hate to say it but this gun never, in the years that I used it, broke paint.(?) This gun was replaced immediately after our first
tournament, with Mini Mags. I've used them since. But along with the retirement of the VM68 I also retired the one shot one kill, no breaks "days". It was truly amazing how accurate this gun was, I don't have any ideas why, it just was.

I don't know if this has any relevance here or not, but there has to be a morel in there somewhere. It just seems silly to argue over which problem is better. I guess if I had something intelligent to say it would be along the same lines of what BlackVCG and Russ had to say..............

If anyone can fix "both" problems it will be Tom, we just have to bug him enough! I expect to see some type of X-ray eye in the next generation of Mags that calculates the chances of a ball break on every paintball that enters the breach, then ejects it if it has structural problems.

[Butterfingers]

2 words Tom...

Foamie Bolt...

Start offering them standard. I honestly think the agressive acceleration of the stock automag bolt has somthing to do with breakage of extremely brittle paint.

Sure a foamie is a replacement item but they are dirt cheap and easy to replace.

I have had one of your AGD Longnose foamies for a year. The original foamie is still on there. I swear by this bolt my hardnoses are collecting dust in my closet.

hows this for statistics...

5 cases 4 breaks.

All of which were caused by nubbin problems. Meaning 4 out of the 4 times the ball broke becuase a nubbin broke.

[the JoKeR]

Personally, I would sacrifice some ROF for a system that would keep me playing longer (no ball breaks). Since I only play rec ball, even 7 or 8 BPS is more than enough for me. If the gun were adjustable, though, to allow a higher ROF based on input pressure (or some other manner), which in turn might mean more breaks, I think that would be simply a cost of doing business. You want speed, but would need to pay the price when using brittle paint. This could indeed be the best of both worlds. ROF based on your paint!

[beam]

I thought that the force of the actual bolt hitting the ball was negligible when compared to the force of the air mass hitting the ball.

In that case....foamie makes little difference. Oh, it may make some difference, but not as much as the pressure of the air hitting the ball.

I have to agree with those who have already said that they would prefer not to break paint.

Plus...aren't shockers like crazy quiet....a big plus for woods ballers.

[Ityl]

when paint breaks in the barrel the gun is very inaccurate.

[Webmaster]

People want guns that dont break paint. Accuracy is important - but nothing is accurate with broken paint.

People also WANT to shoot brittle paint. At least those on the competative level. They dont want a single ball to ever bounce on an oppenent.

I suppose my question with gun operation is - what exactly breaks brittle paint?

Is it the bolt contacting the ball?
Is it the balls contact with the barrel?
Is it the air contacting the ball?

When I talk to people and try to defend the automag design, they still sight how fast or how "hard" the bolt rushes forward. You have to admit, you can put your finger in the feed tube of a properly set up cocker and still keep it.

So assuming its the bolt causing the most breaks, I dont care what the pressure the gun shoots the ball at, I want the bolt to move slower or gentler so that paint is pinched, not chopped, and not smacked so hard.

If it is the barrel causing breaks, then I guess you would have to find the optimal pressure to run the gun at and not break paint.

If it is the air hitting the ball -then obviously you dont want and incorrect pressure running into the gun to cause that problem.

I still love my emag - I love the rope i can throw with it. But I am finding it harder and harder to defend its design against LP enthusiast who feel the automag bolt is hard on the paint. I simply dont have the knowledge to defend it - maybe you can enlighten us?

[Dave]

This is a difficult question, because lets take the worst situation from both parts...I'll use the DGA company someone suggested...lets say that the DGA X marker(Low pressure) came in contact with a Z marker (Higher pressure)
. The guy with the X marker sees the guy with the Z marker and starts shooting like crazy, missing every time. The guy with the Z marker sees balls flying around him, and realizes it's coming from that blasted X marker!!! He starts firing with his Z marker and about 2 ball into firing, he breaks paint, and now is breaking every ball due to the hard firing and the paint in the barrel. So you've got one guy firing all over the place, and one guy breaking paint. Probably the outcome will be the guy with the X marker running up closer and nailing the guy with the Z marker, since he can't get out of the breaks.

But lets take a look at some other points...by the time the X marker is done, he would have shot a ton of paint just to get a hit...a lot of paint means a lot of $$$...then again...the guy with Z marker is feeling the frustration of getting out cause his gun, or rather his PAINT, coundn't deliver. Unfortunately, as Tom said, most people tend to look at the gun as the prob, not the effects of brittle paint.

Right now, I guess brittle paint is the norm. I dunno about you, but I hate brittle paint!!! I want to find the toughest paint I can. I remember shooting Big Ball, and when i pulled the trigger, no ball came out...when i looked at the paint, I saw a big indent in it, meaning the bolt had smacked it, but it didn't break...I love it! I think a ball bouncing off someone is a lot better that a brittle ball breaking in the gun...besides your probably going to hit that person multiple times, not just with one ball(I guess I am thinking more along the rec. ball games) Now comes the problem...what happens if DGA makes it's X marker, with the ultra low pressure, and then the trend changes? What if hard balls are now the rage? Basically your stuck with a Low pressure X marker that doesn't really need low pressure, and shoots all over the place.

I think it is a BAD BAD idea to design something around a trend, because the trend ALWAYS changes. Now, if it was possible for DGA to make a XZ Marker, a combo, an adjustable marker, then that would be the best....if you get stuck with brittle field paint, adjust your XZ to handle it...then if you buy Big Ball for home use, and you do the drop test and find out it's 6 on the charts, then you can 'up' the pressure so your marker can gain more consistency, yet you know the balls can handle the extra pressure to deliver the increased consistency and accuracy. In this case, you are designing the marker around the variance of the balls, and not the balls themselves. That way, if you decide you want to start using a different kind of paint, more brittle, you don't have to worry about having a specific Low pressure back up marker that costs $600, you can just adjust the current marker you have. Or if the paint has a bad batch, and you ned to shoot a different paint, no prob. Adjust the marker as needed. Or if you are running low on gas, and using fairly tough balls, adjust so as to get the best efficiency. An adjustable marker would be excellent!

-dave