ICD Freestyle - the future AGD gun now?

[cledford]

Not sure how many people are familiar with the new ICD gun called the Freestyle. It is a blow forward marker like the mag. ICD seems to like blow-forwards as they also produced the only other production BF I know of aside from the mag. Frankly, both of their guns look like AGD knock-offs, but that's beside the point.

Is the Freestyle what could be from AGD as they move forward? The Freestyle looks like sin and evidently has tolerance issues (like the rest of the ICD guns) but it raises good food for thought. With better design, looks and tolerances, a level 10 system (I know that it's got eyes - but still) and an RT type regulator could something along these lines be the gun that brings AGD back? Oh, and I would lose the "LP" operation and the solenoid (used in part to push bolt back instead of a spring) - however an electro, sans tubes, with nice milling, decent anno and intergrated "valve" would be nice.

Another question, how about an ICD/AGD partnership?

Food for thought.

-Calvin

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=599310

[LittlePaintballBoy]

I think he is reffering internally Rogue, he talked about the blowforward stuff...

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Calvin:

If they took an ICD and made it with a better design, looks and tolerances, a level 10 and RT type regulator...it would be called a mag, cuz that marker already exists.

Shockers look more like mags than anything ICD makes. Unless you are referring to the internal operation?

but the real questions is: Which gun has now become one of the hottest markers on the tournament scene and which gun has been resigned to obscurity by it's manufacturer?

[rkjunior303]

but the real questions is: Which gun has now become one of the hottest markers on the tournament scene and which gun has been resigned to obscurity by it's manufacturer?

considering they both use a very similar INTERNAL design, it just shows even more the direction of both. Freestyles are nice, I shot one at AONE this past Oct.. They rip so easily.

[trains are bad]

I have always thought the ICD freestyle was what the next 'level' automag should have been. The constant opposing force of the bolt spring, while being cheap and simple and dead reliable, is the one thing that bothers me about the automag.

[cledford]

I was mainly refering to the the operation - blow forward.

If AGD could get someing in the the 699-899 range they would be poised very well. The high end Angels, DM4/5s, and Timmies are great - but I'd bet that the majority of the "tourny" guns found on local fields (read in the the hands of the masses, not the few...) are in the Impluse/Shocker/BK0/Freestyle range.

The key is to beef up the freestyle to AGD level quality while keeping it sub-1k in price and you've got yourself a "tourny gun" that you can can run with.

-Calvin

[cledford]

I have always thought the ICD freestyle was what the next 'level' automag should have been.

I agree -which is the real reason I started this post.

The constant opposing force of the bolt spring, while being cheap and simple and dead reliable, is the one thing that bothers me about the automag.

I disagree. The Freestyle runs off of a solenoid which requires LP air. That precludes the use of the RT technology. Dump the LP reg and 'noid from the frestyle, keep the rest and you've got the next gen mag.

-Calvin

[HoppysMag]

sheridan made a blow forward. a couple others, nothing new.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Bunny, you and I were at the SD Cup. I didnt see to many teams using the Freestyle.

Hottest marker? I am not quite sure Id say that...I see more DM4's, Timmies and Shockers than anything else.

And with the recent changing hands of the company, Id first give the new management an opportunity to correct some of this before I resign AGD to obsurity.

BTW---Havent seen you on AIM these days.

Naughty Dogs, Russian Legion, Texas Storm...those are all pro level teams that have taken up Freestyle's for either this past season or this coming season..and it took all of one year for that to happen...

[cledford]

So, 3 teams out of how many? I guess by that logic youd consider the Cocker to be the hottest marker too, right(since there are just as many pro teams using them too)?

It didnt take all of one season cuz its the hottest marker, it took one season cuz someone with lots of money paid those teams to hold/use their marker. That may equate(eventually) into it being the hottest marker, but not yet.

Rogue,

You've got a point in that the teams didn't finally accept the marker for any other reason than ithey got paid to do so - BUT on the other hand they also get paid to win. I'm going to assume that there is a base line of performance that puts it into the "tourny range" or it would have been a no-go from the start. Tippmann can afford to sponser PLENTY of pro teams - but you won't see anyone using the product because it's out of it's element - and thusly going to be a liablity to winning - causing issues with other valuable sponserships.

I think DB is making a compelling arguement in one sense - the baseline performance of the marker (being able to function at the "pro" level) got it on the list, the green got it on the team.

I think it is pretty telling that several BIG name teams are going with this marker.

Frankly, I JUST discovered the freestyle this morning - but it is becoming a very interesting topic...

-Calvin

[cledford]

Rogue,

I see you point about the mag being 15 years ahead of it's time - but I also know that it will never be acceptedwithout some major changes. It's legacy is also it's curse. When you've got that much history, some of it is going to come back to hurt you. IF the mag is to rise to it's former glory it needs and update that changes it *enough* that it isn't the same marker any longer - but still is, if you get my drift.

The mag needs a facelift and work over - but the principals are VER Y sound - hence this topic. It looks that ICD, at least in part has run with the evolution of what "could be." I'm suggesting that AGD should take que and do the same.

I admire what you're doing with the Mags look and would love to have a completely Rogue Mag. You & I have actually discussed this on the phone. The rogue mag is great for me - a dyed in the wool AGD fan - but to get the mag back to the masses is going to more the finally getting all of the parts to match and some decent creative milling. It's going to require something a little more severe - and it's going to need to be electro.

Regarding the 15Bps thing - that just happened - let's wait to see where it goes. There is so much turmoil on the BPS/ramping/cheater issue that it's going to be a while longer before ANYTHING is set in stone. Until it's all said and done BPS will still have a lotto do with selling markers.

-Calvin

[Blazestorm]

I know for a fact that Rocky Knuth and the dogs weren't forced or paid to shoot freestyles, they picked them up on their own, they tried them out, put in their own software, and started changing things for themselves. I'm buds with the ND fs/timmy tech and he put the new software in my gun, he had to pay full price for his freestyle.

Rogue at the moment you are talking out of your ***, and I know it. Naughty Dogs do not get paid to play, they run a field, and still have their main jobs they attend to. Mapp Chimm works at a restraunt waiting tables 40 minutes from me.

Naughty Dogs don't get uber discounts either, often they're paying full retail price for backup or even their main markers. The only things they really don't pay full for is paint and apparrel (free). Talking to rock we found out that they have to pay 4500 for a full-size x-ball field, and that's what we paid...

Freestyles are awesome guns, and CDR with some of the best techs in our area are making them beyond awesome...

[WARPED1]

but the real questions is: Which gun has now become one of the hottest markers on the tournament scene and which gun has been resigned to obscurity by it's manufacturer?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, could it be........................AGD?

[cledford]

Id agree there is a baseline of performance. And AGD markers with their current design are capable of meeting it and exceeding it), even with their 15 year old-classic valve design.

I agree completely. The only issue is that we're all preaching to the faithful. Something will have to fundamentally change with the AGD product (other then with the technology - which we know to be sound) before anyone not already in the fold is going to re-evaluate and learn this fact. AGD's marketing thus far has been to the discriminating player who is savvy enough to know a good deal and understand what makes it so. (quality, support, fit, technology) For AGD (the company) to rise out of the ashes that all will need to forgotten in a sense - NOT LOST - it must be kept - but to get the market now look/chance required price, image, "look" and "bling factor" will need to be incorporated as well. It doesn't seem anyone buys for the good reasons - so sell them what they do want - but remain true to the root s of what make you better. Eventually that will be recognized as well. For example, from what I heard BETA was a better video format that VHS - but who won out in the end? Evidently BATA even marketed on the performance factor - but still lost the war of public opinion. Products don't succeed on performance alone - at least not to the mass public.

But being able to pay a team to hold their marker, that's capable of doing what any other is capable of, is not something I think they would be currently capable of.

True - maybe it's time for AGD to make a deal with the devil and distribute through a big company like National? They can still license the "custom" market to you and others interested in taking things to the next level - who've also been steadfast supporters of their product - but they need some leverage as well. That can be provided by a large distributor.

Kobe Bryant, Shaq(etc etc) all have shoe sponsors....and Id imagine they'd still win(or lose) regardless of the shoe they wear.

Very true.

-Calvin

[Blazestorm]

Who said they were forced? Did I say that anyone was paid to play(as in a salary)?

Re-read my post, teams get sponsorships which is *pay* to use that marker.

While some pro-players do actually get paid, youd be foolish not to think that these sponsorships pay for travel(airline tickets), entry fees(to play in the tournament), gear and paint.

All things that others have to *pay* for out of their pocket.

If you think that any pro team doesnt get compensated in some form, you are just dreaming

I know they get almost a free ride, but you were talking out of your *** when you said that they were told/paid/forced whatever to shoot the freestyle, it was solely their choice because they shot better and performed better then their 1500 dollar timmies.