ICD Freestyle - the future AGD gun now?

[trains are bad]

ULT is awesome and should be standard in every marker

I hate the ULT. I like the regular on/off better.

[PBX Ronin 23]

That is not necessarily true. Holding super tight tolerances does cost more than just OK tolerances. Tooling has to be changed more often, your machines have to be serviced more often, machine parts have to be replaced more often, your inspection process and inspection equipment has to get better (which = more $), and you will reject more finished parts. All of that will have a significant effect on cost.

I'm not saying that you should sacrifice quality for lowered production cost, I'm just saying that it would behoove them to "open up" their tolerances (or work on the design so that it doesn't need such tight tolerances) a bit, they could save a good deal of money (hell, even 1% spread over a whole year's production is a significant savings).

That's all I'm sayin'

I wholeheartedly agree. Especially the bolded part. An ISO 9000 certified shop is not cheap!

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Maybe one of the problems is AGD wants to produce something that ALL mag users can buy for their individual setup. It may be better for them to come out with something 100% new, regardless if we all can use it.

As far as asthetics go. It seems like AGD believes the body, rail, etc. are just there to hold everything together, if we can make it look good, even better. However, other manufacturers may think, here is a block of aluminum, make it look pretty. Oh yea, and make sure it holds all this in there as well. ( Ok so it's probably not exactly like that, but you get my point)
AGD has alot of potential. I cant wait to see where they go with it all.

[Naby]

I love my mag. It's 100% mechanical. I don't like the feeling of an electro. (not even an electro mag) But I am one of the few. Most people, especially the younger kids, all want the new hyped stuff.

In my opinion, if AGD is to appeal to the greater public, it has to make something 100% new. Making ULE and ULT standard and matching it with a nicely milled body will not do.

The mag has a reputation as the good quality marker from the old times. It doesn't matter how good it really is. It doesn't matter wether you need more bps or not. The kid, new to paintball, doesn't want the marker his dad played with 10 years ago. Even though there has been improvements, it's still perceived as the good old mag.

It has to be new. It may even need a new NAME. Or a very clear variation. Like Mag II or something. (ok, ok, I'm not the creative one in the familly.) The message has to be extremely clear: "Here is the NEW marker from AGD"

Such is my opinion.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

It has to be new. It may even need a new NAME. Or a very clear variation. Like Mag II or something. (ok, ok, I'm not the creative one in the familly.) The message has to be extremely clear: "Here is the NEW marker from AGD"

Such is my opinion.

PANTHER..how many times do I have to keep saying it...jeez..

[Muzikman]

Eh, Panther has been used too many times already. I am thinking more like the Gam, or Gamotua or maybe Gaminim. Hell, just use Gam-E!

Edit: I still think someone needs to make a gun called "Le Gat" or the "Agg". Most of the paintball world would not get it.

[TSovern]

Cal, I'm with you on most of the things you've stated in this post. In particular, your uncompromising position regarding quality and maximizing the cosmetic side. But from a practical business standpoint and based on certain manufacturing knowledged that I am aware of, a company WANTS to keep their cost of goods sold as low as possible and keep their selling price to the market as high as possible. That's just a sound business premise and if a company can get away with it, more power to them.

My point is this: The margins between the manufacturing cost of an X-Mag and what they're sold for is extremely low compared to the margins of an 03 Shocker or a DM4/5. These two markers, although presented in the marketplace with intricate "cosmetic-driven" machining actually cost less to manufacture vis-a-vis the X-Mag since the critical components (the internals) are cheaper to manufacture. From a technical and design standpoint the X-Mag is a far superior gun...anyone who would argue this point is either a victim of hype, works for a different manufacturer or are just incapable of being technically discerning.

Between the AGD, SP and Dye, which one benifitted greatly from the point I've made above? Both you and I know that two of these guns, whether by intent or not, are at some point in time going to fail because the wear down in their respective components are more drastic.

Quality cost money. The more time a company spends in designing and producing a product to last a long time, the less margin they make on their products because they have to compete in the a marketplace where the competition doesn't neccessarily share the same perspective on the issue of product longevity.

That being said, if a company can sell guns (a lot of them) in a marketplace where the consumers are more apt to get rid and change their guns at an alarmingly high rate, which of the three companies are more likely to reap tremendous financial gains?.

As a player I agree with you on the quality part. But as a pragmatist, I will humbly beg to differ.

Lastly, the biggest piece of the pie that companies are striving to capture are the low-end/entry level market. The numbers just bear that out. The niche that AGD was going after in the scenario market is a niche that's practically attainable and may still prove to be a boon for any company that wishes to occupy it.

So are our PBX cockers gonna be Shocker or Mag grade??

[WenULiVeUdiE]

So are our PBX cockers gonna be Shocker or Mag grade??

If you are getting at what I think you are getting at, then Mag grade. Just holding one of their cockers I could tell it was of very high quality. PBX is an applaudable company.

[VFX_Fenix]

For those that came late to the show the Matrix and 03 Shocker both function with a blow forward spool valve similarly to the ICD Freestyle. So... if this is the "future of AGD" then it's been around since 1999. Sorry to rain on peep's parade, but ummm... yeah....

[cledford]

Eh, Panther has been used too many times already. I am thinking more like the Gam, or Gamotua or maybe Gaminim. Hell, just use Gam-E!

Edit: I still think someone needs to make a gun called "Le Gat" or the "Agg". Most of the paintball world would not get it.

Titan?

-Calvin

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Titan?

-Calvin

how about the Automag TLTL (as in "too little, too late")?

[PBX Ronin 23]

So are our PBX cockers gonna be Shocker or Mag grade??

Our manufacturing facility will be ISO 9000 certified. Not intending to sound defensive but in order for me to adequately answer your question, I need to know whether AGD or SP do their manufacturing to the same standards.

But if I were to answer blindly, my answer would consist of three letters.

[CoolHand]

For those that came late to the show the Matrix and 03 Shocker both function with a blow forward spool valve similarly to the ICD Freestyle. So... if this is the "future of AGD" then it's been around since 1999. Sorry to rain on peep's parade, but ummm... yeah....

Not to burst your bubble, but the new Shocker, and the Matrix are not a blow forward. They use applied LP air to move the bolt forward, and uncork the dump chamber. If left with the dump chamber charged, but no air in either of the bolt movement chambers, nothing would happen. There is not force applied to the bolt or spool by the HP air in the dump chamber. The only thing that can make that marker cycle is the outside input of LP air to force the bolt forward.

In a Mag, and a Freestyle, if you leave the dump chamber charged, but remove the opposing force (the sear in the Mag, or the LP air in the Freestyle), the bolt will move forward and dump the air in the chamber.

That is blow forward. The other two are just spools.

Now, I agree that the air operated blow forward has already been done, I'm just seeing a lot of misclassification.

Can't have that . . . . .

Later

[CoolHand]

Our manufacturing facility will be ISO 9000 certified. . . . .

Oww!

They got me right in the wallet . . . .



That ISO certification costs a pretty penny. Are you guys only going to be doing PB stuff? If you are, I gotta ask how you're gonna absorb a cost like that.

If you're not, then it sorta explains itself.

[steveg]

Cool, Toxic Dave is entirely right in saying that the differance in cost between "good"
and not so good parts is not much at all.

A well set up and maintained machine can make +/- .001" aluminum parts days on end
with little or no attention paid to it (not that a comptent shop would ever do that )
In fact if diamond tooling can be used, that can be extended to weeks or even months.
(diamond at the point costs darn near nothing! per part.)

In fact good maintenance and good tooling make better and lower cost parts than
neglecting the machine and tools.
scrap becomes almost nonexistant,and no messing with the machine to make a good part etc. that equals uptime=money

It's only when you get down to the +/- .0002" level where every part need to be measured
and you start to get significant out of tolerance problems.

Regarding Iso 9000, I've been around the machine tool business for about 20 years
now and I've yet to see the '9000 plague make an already good shop better.
It has however caused for a dramatic increase in meaningless paperwork
9000 is mostly about documenting process, there actually is another standard that
I don't remember/couldn't find about actual product quality.

remember the cheapest nastiest thing you can buy can still be iso9000.