ICD Freestyle - the future AGD gun now?

[Vanced]

Ok,

I sat and read all the pages of this thread...

What any of this fails to grasp is: All the legal vs. money issues that exist. I don't need or want to go into that... But we all know Tom, Dave, Nicad, AKA, who ever can not do what they would like... But here we are all forgetting it again...

As for the quality issues... yep ... My neary 15 year old marker still runs as well today as it did then after being played hard with nothing more than a little oil. Hell I think it still has most of the orginal o-rings in it.

Quality Costs Money: no body can argue that... but it also earns repsect from thoose who value it...

Example: something as simple a wrench...

Go get a 1/2" wrench from the dollar store, Craftsman, and a Snap-On...

No moving parts, no patent issues, no radical engineering or design issues, no endless color or milling choices... All NEARLY identical with the same desired effectiveness...

Why is one 100 times the cost of another.... The differnce is tolerances and material choices... They all work for the most part, but people who want the best and count on that wrench, and never want to buy another one if they don't want too choose the upper end.

Like I have always said...
It all comes down to everything else in paintball ... choice...

( Flame on )

Make your choices, IF you want a freestyle and like what they are doing... go get a freestyle... If you like whoever's latest gun go get that... why do I always see countless posts about people wanting and trying to make AGD into someone else ?

Note: This isn't directed at anyone or anything... there are a lot of good stuff out there that severs their intened purpose and has great performance, some proftiable and some not, some popular and some not...

I choose mags 10+ years ago for the reasons that make the mag what it is. Quality and Rock solid ingenious design. I wanted a gun that performed at a high enough level for me with no down time when I played every weekend and couldn't afford a back up. And, now that I play once a month if I am lucky and could afford any marker. But I want to only work on it when I want to tinker not because I have to to play, and can shelf for few months or a few years, pull it out and play a moments notice because I don't have time I would like with my busy life. I for one just do not want to see anything ever come out of AGD that I know won't work a decade later, I don't care many times I change guns for some tinker or toy reason between now and then.

So that is why I still thank Tom for what he gave us, even though it wasn't always easy on him... I hope Dave has some of the same visions and will make some of the same sacrafices to keep giving me a quality product, because I know I wouldn't hold it agaisnt him if he sold out... Because I don't run the place and I don't have to feed my family from paintball either...

As for all this talk about the future: all I have seen came up with is you all want it to lead to a lower cost X-Mag with a 9V battery in the grip and a Banjo Bolt.... with 37+ milling and anno options with a new name... And that isn't nesicarily a bad thing...BUT not at the cost of quality, the fan base of AGD, lawsuits, someone's soul, and what ever else to get it? Which are all issues faced by some of the larger dominate names in paintball... And that doesn't even count it could be questionable if they can even legally continue do it and get away with it...

And that is not counting what growing into a large company can also cost... customer service & personal touch ... I mean come on... most you know theese people by first name, can call and talk to them ... and not only do you know them.... they know and care about us personally as well as their product.

Don't get me wrong I would like to see AGD continue to have a pressence in the electronic marker market and the public paintball market in general... it is just that still...

Why does everyone want and feel the need that AGD has to be such a big part of the hype and buzz of the sport when there are plenty of companies out there for them. It can't be just because we got a great message board? Why can't they just happy like I am that there are Mags in the hands of most of my circle of friends when we get together to play and enjoy it for what it is to us...

Beacase if you feel the Mags AGD has given you up till now doesn't give you enough, bling, awe, attention, jealous looks, or respect go out get what you feel you need to and do what the Mag in my eyes has been doing all along, slowly earning its reputation one elimination at a time.

(Flame off)

Did I mention i like the Bannana Guy -->

Sorry for that I don't typically do that...

Edit: Steve, I think you are refering to the TS 16949 certification... because my shop has it along with its ISO.

[Naby]

Vanced, I am happy with my mag. It does everything I want it to and as far as I'm concerned, AGD doesn't have to come up with anything new. But for AGD, as a company, it may be important to regain some of the newer crowd's hearts because it still need to sell guns to survive. I belive Tom mentionned, in his final msg, that AGD has been strained financially for some time now.

[Muzikman]

Vance: The problem is AGD is dying. People are talking about ways to bring AGD back before they just decide to close their doors forever. If you have not noticed, Tom is gone. If AGD was making good money and did not have issues, do you really think he would just get up and leave?

[cledford]

Vance: The problem is AGD is dying. People are talking about ways to bring AGD back before they just decide to close their doors forever. If you have not noticed, Tom is gone. If AGD was making good money and did not have issues, do you really think he would just get up and leave?

It's really disheartening to hear it put this way - but this is the truest statement thus far. I'd really like to see AGD continue on and prosper - but the selfish side wants to keep the legacy of all that has already gone on moving forward as well. I just hope the two can be combined in a single package that takes the world by storm!

I really wonder if Tom will ever be back to do consulting work for AGD. I think all of the changes in the industry really hurt him - but if he could just be turned loose to solve problems without the weight of all of the other stuff maybe he'd be happy.

-Calvin

[Muzikman]

Any time you talked to Tom about the industry over the last 9 or so months he would get that real serious look on his face and just say things like, "The furure of paintball is up to you [the players]". You can tell he was not happy. He was not the same person he was even 2 years ago. I honeslty think it hurt him to see paintball slip into the state that it currently is.

This post is from Glenn over on the POG forum...this shows what the additudes of the old-timers were and still are.
(http://paintmagazine.com/phpBB2/view...=2285&start=30)

---
"I kind of doubt that.
They have not even responded to the letter that I sent their attorneys.
However, it's not been ruled out as an option. Rolling Eyes

On the other hand, I didn't ask for any money ,yet, I just presented a factual view of the situation and suggested that they not screw with other people over something that they have no legitimate rights to. Razz"
---

That was in reponse to the WGP/K2 issues, more specificaly in relation to AM-P.

To this day, Glenn is not just looking out for himself and PPS, but the other companies out there that the bigger companies are trying to stomp on.

There is a reason I own so many Palmer and AGD products.

[CoolHand]

. . . . A well set up and maintained machine can make +/- .001" aluminum parts days on end
with little or no attention paid to it (not that a comptent shop would ever do that )
In fact if diamond tooling can be used, that can be extended to weeks or even months.
(diamond at the point costs darn near nothing! per part.) . . . .

Maybe if you're already running brand new machines (I mean less than a year old, with less than 5000 hours on the spindle), with great god awful tombstones, and diamond PVD tooling.

Otherwise, everything gets more expensive when you step from +-0.005" down to +-0.0005" Your maintenance schedule, your fixture costs, your tooling cost, everything. That is, if you are actually going to hold the tolerances your gonna brag about.

If you think that the cost to go from 5 thou to 1/2 a thou are negligable, you are fooling yourself. And really, what in a paintball marker needs to hold half a thou? They can't make orings that are that consistant. Hell, they can't make orings that are even 1/3 that consistant. Also, I don't know how many of you have thought about this, but half a thou in aluminum will quickly evaporate if the part changes temperature. Manufacture it at 70 deg F, and then pick it up and hold it in your hand for a little bit - whammo! You're half thou tolerance has just evaporated. In the real world, 30 deg temp fluctuations are not hard to come by. Don't even get me started on anodizing. . . . Its pointless to design to such tight tolerances, especially in aluminum.

That's my rant. Take it or leave it.

Also, when I say "you" I don't mean you specifically ('cause I don't even know you), its just easier than saying "one would blah blah . . . . " You get the picture.

[steveg]

Cool just what kind of machine are you running anyhow?

[CoolHand]

Cool just what kind of machine are you running anyhow?

My CNC is an older MHP A-22. 28x18x16 machining cube, 22 tool ATC (Automatic Tool Changer), 10 hp spindle.

We just did a PC retrofit (which took ~9 months, don't get me started ), so the control at least, is basically two steps behind state of the art. Don't have any of those cool at the machine CAM programs, or the look ahead features for hard milling, but since its only got a 5000 rpm spindle, HSM is kinda outta its range anyway.

When it has new tooling in it, we can hold +-0.001" consistently with the fixtures we use. The scales are accurate down to a ten thou (that's 0.0001"), but I'd be real surprised if the spindle bearings in the old girl would have a runout under three ten thou (it is old after all).

[Vanced]

Vance: The problem is AGD is dying. People are talking about ways to bring AGD back before they just decide to close their doors forever. If you have not noticed, Tom is gone. If AGD was making good money and did not have issues, do you really think he would just get up and leave?

Yeah I am sorry folks... went all PBN on ya.... I was sick this morning and just hit me wrong and went off... And yeah Tom is gone... and I guess I am still bitter over it... But as one of my old bosses use to say Don't bring me a problem without at least offering a solution...

And I think Tom's greatest legacy is the answer to the problem... Simply the Valve... We can all pretty much agree after the RT and LX upgrades it is damn near perfect...

I have been seing a steady Rise in Mags over the last year and half or so... and it is mainly due things that have been worked on right here... Things like Tom's ULE, Deadlywind, Rouge works, Logic, Tunamart... etc... As Tom said the future of paintball is in our own hands... There is a fresh young bunch of players out there that are not all the way biased, we all have been explaining what are mags are lately...

Yeah AGD is dying but as Micacle Max once said something like "There is a Big Differnce in mostly dead and all the way dead..."

I'll Live with the fact it will never be the game I grew up loving... the battery killed it as I always say...

But the solution lies in continually bulding around the Valve... It has the Patents to protect it.. and is plenty fast enough ... plenty durable enough... Interchangeable ... Has History & a Future if we want to help write it...

Keep up with what has been started... More Bodies, More Frames, More Colors, More C&C, More Options... Make the Mag like a Barrel Kit... Piece and part what you need for that day...

We have a rock solid Mech Options... Just keep working on the packaging...

For the love of god create a cheep two finger Carbon Fiber Frame already... if you need a reason it's no wonder AGD is dying....

And start outsourcing even more... We started with Pro Team, Pro Line, Dye, and even the beloved Smart Parts was making stuff for Mags... People love to buy names and parts they really don't need... get um to do it again if you can get them away from their own guns... If not We already got a great bunch of AO guy on the job...

Let shops who want to take the undertaking of R&D And sell the stuff... Heck look at everyone who makes Cocker parts, and how many Cocker Frames and Bodies are out there... Bring Back novelties like the Auto Response Frame, Pump Kits, & Six Packs if someone else wants to Produce um give um the rights let um... and Pray the H.A.I.R. makes the light of day... But hey you still gotta sell um the Valves...

But any gun built around your Valve will always be a MAG in the players eyes... Weither it is a Pro-Team, Rouge, Tuna, Deadlywind, DYE, Smart Parts, ... It'll all end in Mag...

As for the Electric marker Market... I think we simply need a ROCK SOLID mass produced bolt on E-Grip. The Hyperframes, etc where always so close yet so far in my eyes...

Look how the E-Blades are really helping the Mech deamon that is the cocker... & We can make it look smooth and sleak. We do need a E-Frame that removes all Mech Options, and takes the sear away from the trigger... So it can the Electric Feel that the Buzz is for... and remove all the RT full auto Tippman Trigger syndrome... & Make sure it Runs on 9 Volts or similar small battery in the Frame. Buy the rights to what you need to ... create what you need too... But give it all the nifty tunable Trigger pull options, Give it the options people want to be able to Ramp, WAS, Cheater Board what ever to it they want... (( All the "Illegal" stuff comming from aftermarket Mod's of course )) Hell even Eclipse might want to make um...

If people want to a Mech Gun & a Elect Gun for Game play... You can switch to another Frame in a min or two... great for guys who want to go from Rec Ball to Tourny Ball and Back and Forth... What other gun can give you that option ...

Create Versions With and Without the ACE ... Most of us know it isn't needed wtih LX... But hell they'll sell anyways to the higher end market...

I think our answer it where Tom has been leadign all along... Get into the Higher End Noob Market and the Lower End Tourny Guy buy giving him a Gun Platform he can continue to Grow with and get some Brand Loyalty too... Buy buying pieces and parts instead of a whole new marker every season... And then they end up in the same boat as so many of us... "hummm I got a whole extra Mag if I just buy another Valve" .. and the cycle continues...

Tom started it with price slashed ULE RT Custom & keep checking if their is room to lower it even more... we all know the market is lacking inbetween E-Sypders and $1000+ paint cannons.... Lets fill it... and Make Tom proud of his marker & his very own AO Army...

Rant Off...

In my eyes, It'll always be Tom's world and I am still just living in it ... But I have hopes for Dave and AGD because I am not done playing the game yet...

CHEERS

[cledford]

Best post on the subject ever.

-Calvin

Yeah I am sorry folks... went all PBN on ya.... I was sick this morning and just hit me wrong and went off... And yeah Tom is gone... and I guess I am still bitter over it... But as one of my old bosses use to say Don't bring me a problem without at least offering a solution...

And I think Tom's greatest legacy is the answer to the problem... Simply the Valve... We can all pretty much agree after the RT and LX upgrades it is damn near perfect...

I have been seing a steady Rise in Mags over the last year and half or so... and it is mainly due things that have been worked on right here... Things like Tom's ULE, Deadlywind, Rouge works, Logic, Tunamart... etc... As Tom said the future of paintball is in our own hands... There is a fresh young bunch of players out there that are not all the way biased, we all have been explaining what are mags are lately...

Yeah AGD is dying but as Micacle Max once said something like "There is a Big Differnce in mostly dead and all the way dead..."

I'll Live with the fact it will never be the game I grew up loving... the battery killed it as I always say...

But the solution lies in continually bulding around the Valve... It has the Patents to protect it.. and is plenty fast enough ... plenty durable enough... Interchangeable ... Has History & a Future if we want to help write it...

Keep up with what has been started... More Bodies, More Frames, More Colors, More C&C, More Options... Make the Mag like a Barrel Kit... Piece and part what you need for that day...

We have a rock solid Mech Options... Just keep working on the packaging...

For the love of god create a cheep two finger Carbon Fiber Frame already... if you need a reason it's no wonder AGD is dying....

And start outsourcing even more... We started with Pro Team, Pro Line, Dye, and even the beloved Smart Parts was making stuff for Mags... People love to buy names and parts they really don't need... get um to do it again if you can get them away from their own guns... If not We already got a great bunch of AO guy on the job...

Let shops who want to take the undertaking of R&D And sell the stuff... Heck look at everyone who makes Cocker parts, and how many Cocker Frames and Bodies are out there... Bring Back novelties like the Auto Response Frame, Pump Kits, & Six Packs if someone else wants to Produce um give um the rights let um... and Pray the H.A.I.R. makes the light of day... But hey you still gotta sell um the Valves...

But any gun built around your Valve will always be a MAG in the players eyes... Weither it is a Pro-Team, Rouge, Tuna, Deadlywind, DYE, Smart Parts, ... It'll all end in Mag...

As for the Electric marker Market... I think we simply need a ROCK SOLID mass produced bolt on E-Grip. The Hyperframes, etc where always so close yet so far in my eyes...

Look how the E-Blades are really helping the Mech deamon that is the cocker... & We can make it look smooth and sleak. We do need a E-Frame that removes all Mech Options, and takes the sear away from the trigger... So it can the Electric Feel that the Buzz is for... and remove all the RT full auto Tippman Trigger syndrome... & Make sure it Runs on 9 Volts or similar small battery in the Frame. Buy the rights to what you need to ... create what you need too... But give it all the nifty tunable Trigger pull options, Give it the options people want to be able to Ramp, WAS, Cheater Board what ever to it they want... (( All the "Illegal" stuff comming from aftermarket Mod's of course )) Hell even Eclipse might want to make um...

If people want to a Mech Gun & a Elect Gun for Game play... You can switch to another Frame in a min or two... great for guys who want to go from Rec Ball to Tourny Ball and Back and Forth... What other gun can give you that option ...

Create Versions With and Without the ACE ... Most of us know it isn't needed wtih LX... But hell they'll sell anyways to the higher end market...

I think our answer it where Tom has been leadign all along... Get into the Higher End Noob Market and the Lower End Tourny Guy buy giving him a Gun Platform he can continue to Grow with and get some Brand Loyalty too... Buy buying pieces and parts instead of a whole new marker every season... And then they end up in the same boat as so many of us... "hummm I got a whole extra Mag if I just buy another Valve" .. and the cycle continues...

Tom started it with price slashed ULE RT Custom & keep checking if their is room to lower it even more... we all know the market is lacking inbetween E-Sypders and $1000+ paint cannons.... Lets fill it... and Make Tom proud of his marker & his very own AO Army...

Rant Off...

In my eyes, It'll always be Tom's world and I am still just living in it ... But I have hopes for Dave and AGD because I am not done playing the game yet...

CHEERS

[CoolHand]

Spelling corrected(and bolded). . . . . .

People have the roughest time with your SN.

Maybe you ought to go with it . . . . . .

Rougefactor Foundation: For the decerning PB

Could sell it in a flat black compact.

It was just too easy . . . . . . couldn't fight the urge . . . may edit post later . . . . too strong now . . . .



(Just in case some people don't get it, the above is a joke, which was too easy for me to simply pass up, no disrespect is intended, I imagine that Rogue has a decent sense of humor, put down the flamethrowers . . . )

[Toxic Dave]

Aftermarket parts help the sale of a marker in many ways, it allows people to "customize" their guns and it creates the perception that the product is worthy of having "x" company to work on it. I'll explain, players see that tuner shops have bothered to make a part or work on a marker, it's obvious that the product isn't a piece of junk. The problem is that unless there is a REAL market for aftermarket parts for a marker, it's crazy to make parts for it, unless you like watching dust gather on anodized aluminum.

Cocker owners don't demand that the shocktech body become standard, because WGP has updated their body design every year to keep up with basic demand.

dave.

[CoolHand]

For some its just a keyboard fubar...

Yep, Ive lived with it thus far....somehow I will cry myself to sleep tonight

oh, you were just joking ....here is a beer for ya

If you do decide to go with it, I promise I won't start a competing line.

Have a good Holiday.

[steveg]

My CNC is an older MHP A-22. 28x18x16 machining cube, 22 tool ATC (Automatic Tool Changer), 10 hp spindle.

I've never crossed paths with one of those, is it a horizontal machine?
My experience as a field service engineer is with(takes a deep breath)

Mori Seiki Lathes and machining centers{factory trained at the factory Nara Japan }
OKK machining centers,SNK machining centers{up to 90 feet long with 6 5axis heads},
OM lathes, Makino machining centers, Yasda machining centers {some are capable of +/-.00005"}
Bridgeport mills and machining centers{factory trained Bridgeport conn },Romi lathes and cnc lathes{factory trained BP Conn}
Kao Ming machining centers, Harig surface grinders{factory trained Elgin Ill},
Okamoto surface and cylindrical grinders, Kuraki boring mills, Kao Fong machining centers,
all as my day job for 16+ years , so I do have some small amount of knowledge
of CNC machines and what their capabilities are.# end my rant #

as will I've worked on Matsuuara's, Okumas,and some Mazaks .

All of these machines are capable of better than +/- .001" and for many years.

There now that I've got that out of my system

Somewere up above some one suggested that loosening the tolerances would make
for a less expensive produce , what Toxic Dave and then I are saying is that on modern
High volume CNC lathes and machining Centers , good close tolerances are a built in
Natural part of the process thus there is neither point nor savings.This same equipment
Is being used in Taiwan and China.
Apparently all the round mag parts are being made on Mazak Integrex machines, I think
CPhilip has some pictures around here somewere.

[cledford]

Apparently all the round mag parts are being made on Mazak Integrex machines, I think
CPhilip has some pictures around here somewere.

You are correct. Cphil and I were both on the tour of the factory were all of the AGD stuff is made.

-Calvin