ICD Freestyle - the future AGD gun now?

[Vanced]

Spelling corrected(and bolded).

At least you are on the right track. Aftermarket manufacturers are 1 part of a much bigger picture and the key...always have been.

However, I dont see cocker owners saying "make that Shockteck body as a stock option", but AO'ers do!
You want the bling, pay your way and buy it from the aftermarket manufacturer. But we as AO'ers have gotten used to coming here and complaining to AGD to make it themselves.

Problem is when the manufacturer makes an upgrade a stock option, it discourages the aftermarket manufacturer from doing what they do, while also degrading the image of that part...as *stock* parts just arent cool

Self-fulfilling prophecy... We lose aftermarket manufacturers(Extreme Rage, Eclipse, etc) and we are right back here complaining that we dont have enough parts.

And ultimately, sales numbers dont dictate making new stuff. Cuz making new stuff isnt free, it costs money. So if you arent buying, nothing else can be created.

So, vote with your pocket book and buy more. Or settle for what you have now.

But...as previously stated the NEXT Evolution is coming. Its happening, all around you, give it time. Rome wasnt re-built in a day.

Sorry ROGUE,

You would think after playing fantasy games half my life I would be able to spell such a common word. But know my fingers work faster than my brain I guess... But don't feel bad , it's nuttin' personal , I am lucky if I spell my own name right half the time.

But I was never saying "make that shocktech body a stock option" far from it... I want to see the base stock mag be made as rock solid & bell and whistle free as possible with color's being the only real option. To get it into the hands of as many players as cheeply as possible. Give um a gun that works , that they can't really mess up too bad by tuning like a cocker, and Then show um and tease um constantly with all that their gun can grow into... By adding one piece at time... Because you are right Stock Parts will always have that "Stock Part" stigma no matter how good they really are... so why fight it...

We all know the game costs money... often ALOT of money... but the average player can come up with $50, $100, or even a few hundred or so at a time be it a birthday, christmas what ever... a whole lot easier than they can come up with a $1200 chunk for the lastest complete non upgradeable out of date next year gun... So give them things they can buy... The Tippy guys like it... buying new stocks, triggers, frames, timmers, lights, pointless bells and whistles constantly...

As I said the growth in in the valve... stealth'd Scecerio guns or Bling'd out Tourny guns .... it shouldn't matter it's still just pulling a thumb screw and pop'n in your Valve.

Bottom line is we need to get New Mags back on the walls of shops and fields again... Give the people that don't already have biased the chance to decide... Do what you have too ... Give Stores & large field a Free or discount Demo Mags... ( Has worked wonders selling Golf Clubs and such ) Paintball's best marketing tool is has and is always going to be word of mouth. Get the gun in the hands of the guy who answers the question daily when the kid comes in off the street with his mom or his buddy and asks... " So I have a couple hundred bucks to spend on a gun what do you suggest "...And consider getting the starter package idea going... comming with a no frills steel 68/3k HP Tank and a cheep Revy knock off ... Also don't forget to promote the fact that Mag's have and hold valve... You try to sell last years Mag you still get a decent return on your money... ever try to re-sell a E-Spyder after what you paid new? But it is up to us at AO to continue to support our guys, for us to have the upgrades, and show that kid you see at the field buying the Stock mag what his gun can grow into...

Like a guy who just left a car show and and is buying an old muscle car or a little honda civic with dreams of tuning it into a rocket...We got the 426 Hemi for a valve, no matter what you put it in it should rock... give um the go... sell um the show....

I know rome wasn't built it a day, and it wasn't built by just one roman either. A few people are spending a lot of Time and money to bring us innovations... but if they gotta find a way to get it to market past the legal and financial roadblocks, and we gotta do what we can to support um... but AGD also has to do what it can to continue to build a market for the aftermarket guys... Because no matter how much we want too... AO alone no matter how good our intentions we have can not support Mag world alone with our current size and income, because we are still questioning our very existance a well...

As I said before I am happy I don't have to feed my family over it. Plenty more people will or went broke from the sport than ever made a pofit...but there is money out there somewhere... cause I for one know I have spent a lot on the sport...

But All in all... this is just another virtual 2cents worth of cyber nothingness... It is up to the powers and the players that be to see if this will slowly become the next Mag revolution or the first Mag funeral...

EDIT: Oh yeah.. and we need A LOT more of semi-nude hot chicks for advertising

[CoolHand]

I've never crossed paths with one of those, is it a horizontal machine? . . . .

Nah, its a vertical, but they made horizontals of the exact same machine (just 90 degs off kelter )

I've only got about 5yrs of CNC machining experience, and most of that is on older machines, however I have found that it costs more money to hold a part to +-0.001" than it does to hold it to +-0.005". And, since there is no reason at all to hold them tighter than that (hell, +-0.015" would never cause a problem on the stuff we make), I don't.

Apparently all the round mag parts are being made on Mazak Integrex machines, I think
CPhilip has some pictures around here somewere.

Those are some pictures I'd like to see.

Sadly, I have no experience (outside of a few inspections/watching production) with CNC turning machines. However, since they are pretty pricey, I doubt that I will ever be in need of first hand experince (IE [b]I'll/[b] never own one).

This point has stalemated, I have said my piece, and you your's, and since both of our experiences differ by a good margin, I'm guessing we're just not going to agree (which is fine, I won't hold it against you ). I think a lot of our disagreement is based off of what kind of equipment we're used to using (you = the good stuff . . . . me = the older stuff), which will make a big difference.

At any rate, its good to hear from someone who has more experience (much more apparently) with a good deal of the equipment out there.

Have a good holiday.

[CoolHand]

I have spoken with every shop that I have ever walked into. You know what they say? AGD undercut them by selling the marker or parts directly to the customer cheaper than they could buy it for. And as a dealer, I can vouch that on at least a number of occassions this is true.

That is most true, and AGD is not the only PB manufacturer out there that does it. Look at NPS. You can almost always go buy stuff from 888paintball for less money than a dealer can buy that same item from NPS directly. The only thing they don't undercut their dealers on is the Intimidator, but the profit margin on those is ridiculously low for a marker that costs that much.

The fact is that manufacturers see that the line to the consumer is getting shorter, and the logical next step is to simply short circuit the whole deal, and make all the money themselves. The internet has killed the local dealer. Now, you don't need hundreds of dealers pushing your parts like before (before the internet explosion that is). Now, good advertising can basically replace the entire dealer network of 10 yrs ago, 'cause anyone can type your website into the browser, and cut the middleman out completly.

It sucks, but what are you going to do? The same people who ***** about their proshops going under, or their shops having nothing on the walls, are the very same people who would go by online to save $3 over what the store wanted for it.

Unless the average PB'er is willing to support their local fields and stores, there is no way that the dealer situation will ever get any better.

Have a good Holiday.

[RogueFactor]

That is most true, and AGD is not the only PB manufacturer out there that does it. Look at NPS. You can almost always go buy stuff from 888paintball for less money than a dealer can buy that same item from NPS directly. The only thing they don't undercut their dealers on is the Intimidator, but the profit margin on those is ridiculously low for a marker that costs that much.

The fact is that manufacturers see that the line to the consumer is getting shorter, and the logical next step is to simply short circuit the whole deal, and make all the money themselves. The internet has killed the local dealer. Now, you don't need hundreds of dealers pushing your parts like before (before the internet explosion that is). Now, good advertising can basically replace the entire dealer network of 10 yrs ago, 'cause anyone can type your website into the browser, and cut the middleman out completly.

It sucks, but what are you going to do? The same people who ***** about their proshops going under, or their shops having nothing on the walls, are the very same people who would go by online to save $3 over what the store wanted for it.

Unless the average PB'er is willing to support their local fields and stores, there is no way that the dealer situation will ever get any better.

Have a good Holiday.

NPS is technically a distributor(not a manufacturer). So a small shop is supposed to be able to buy from NPS cheaper than going direct, depending on quantities.

888Paintball is technically separate from NPS. As is Empire, and all the others. From what I have been informed, 888PPB has been legally set-up that way as to avoid MAP pricing. If something could be done about it, I am sure it would. Some manufacturers refuse to sell to NPS because of this.

Again, the manufacturer should never compete with its dealers. Or undercut them.

The bolded text I agree with 100%. That mentality is what fuels the path to big-box retailers.

Ironic, that the consumers are actually creating the big-box retailer while simultaneously complaining about it AND making the decisions that are creating that market.

[Kaiser Bob]

Sorry ROGUE,

I want to see the base stock mag be made as rock solid & bell and whistle free as possible with color's being the only real option. To get it into the hands of as many players as cheeply as possible. Give um a gun that works , that they can't really mess up too bad by tuning like a cocker, and Then show um and tease um constantly with all that their gun can grow into... By adding one piece at time... Because you are right Stock Parts will always have that "Stock Part" stigma no matter how good they really are... so why fight it...

That approach was tried years ago by AGD, if you recall, where they sold a classic mag with nothing on it, not even a barrel. It wasnt the best idea IMO, because you couldent use the gun at all out of the box, and that turned off some prospective buyers. Its similar to the gaming sector, back in the day consoles generally came with a game so at least you could play something right out of the box, now that seems to be relegated to holiday season.

[Vanced]

Coolhand & Rogue,

You are both right, and it is no secert that the local shops can't compete. My cousin ran a field for years and got out for the obvious reasons a couple years ago, so I got to that chance see it first hand. But the ones who are are staying open are not making their money off of the Guns on the wall they are making their money off of field fees, repair work, little extras, spare parts, & paint & air... and sell guns more as a courstsey to their customers. And typically cheep begineer guns is all they'll typically have and the only higher up guns on display are guns owned by the shop owner, his employee's and the regulars. It isn't just the mags that have put a bad taste in shop owners mouths with new display guns...

But, I know for a fact you give um something for nothing give um some cool posters & t-shirts... and a discount or free Mag for Demo... They will be your display case not your distribution center... because that is what you want... And they will give the buyer the same line they do now... "I'll be happy to order it for you" ... just make sure you can get it to the dealer in a couple of days... or even offer to direct ship it to who ever they sell it too... the profit margin will never be big anymore... but that isn't going to change with the internet... But doing something for the dealers is better than nothing...

Becasue we have found good ways to sell us paintball stuff on the internet, BUT we still haven't found a good way for us to play paintball on the internet... so until that changes players still have to go to shops and fields... take advantage of it.

And right you all have a happy holidays...

[Vanced]

Kaiser Bob,

Oh I agree totally with what you are saying... The bare classic wasn't the best idea. I did say Give um a gun that works... Not works after and when you add theese parts too it...

Maybe I didn't claify myself too well.. if you read down a little more you will see that I said go with the starter kit idea... Cheep preset Steel 68/3k and a Revy knock off... and make colors the only real stock option.

There needs to be quick Out of the Box air up and play version, I was trying to say we don't need to always sell the gun with all the new bodies and frames and price itself out of much of the market...

EDIT: But I do still want to be able to order a new gun minus the barrel minus the cost if I want... I just don't like the idea of marketing the gun hanging on the wall at a shop minus the barrel...again it just leads too offering more choices... and choice = good...

[CoolHand]

NPS is technically a distributor(not a manufacturer). So a small shop is supposed to be able to buy from NPS cheaper than going direct, depending on quantities. . . .

That's true for a lot of things, but NPS is getting to be more of a manufacturer every day. Just look at the brands they actually make: Empire, 32 Deg, Psychoballistics, and everything with Bob Long's name on it. That makes up probably 50% of what they sell.

Your point is still valid, I just don't give NPS the "distributor" out. 'Cause, really, even if you can buy cheaper from them than MFG direct, you cannot buy cheaper than they sell to the general public . . . . so what's the point of having a dealership? Qty breaks are the only thing that comes with the dealer status, but even then, most parts have to be ordered in such massive qtys (to get any discount to speak of), that you'd need to take out a fourth mortgage to get it paid for.

But, like you said, the big box is here now, and they aren't going to go away.

That's why I've moved away from strictly resale . . . . .

[CoolHand]

NPS is allot of things. Which is smart business, competitvely speaking. If you competition tries to sqaush you, you have other business channels to rely on. I am not 100% certain its NPS that is technically all of these things. I know the common factor is the owner, but for legal reasons Id guess its been set-up to avoid conflict of interest/anti-trust issues.

And now, the NPS tenticles are so widespread that going up against NPS and getting rid of them is the equivalent of cutting off ones nose to spite their face. You may get rid of him, but youll be losing an appendage in the process, or maybe even your own business existence.


Another irony, those manufacturers that complain the most about what NPS has done are the ones who had the opportunity 10 years ago to keep it from happening. Instead, they loved NPS who bought them out of over-stock goods in their down times.

Pay me now or pay me later. Make a deal with the Devil, youll eventually get burned.

NPS/Gino from my understanding started out of his garage...a little guy just like us. How things have changed.

Oh yeah, I'd imagine that each section has been compartmentalized to reduce overall risk, and keep the legal eagles happy, but the same guy is still running the show.

I'm not saying they're (NPS that is) good or bad, and you're right, Gino made himself, which you gotta respect. It really doesn't make much difference to me anyway, as the few things that I resell, I get mfg direct. About the only stuff I buy from NPS anymore is paint (which they've got good prices on), and that's just 'cause the closest place to get it otherwise is 60 miles away.

I just like to play the devil's advocate (maybe its 'cause I'm a generally grumpy person, or maybe I just like to argue ).

The reality of it is that if you want to be successful in this market, you'll have to do the same thing they did. (once again, the rhetorical "you") Its a business model that plays itself out over and over agian, in all sorts of industries. And why not? Its hard to argue with success.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Oww!

They got me right in the wallet . . . .



That ISO certification costs a pretty penny. Are you guys only going to be doing PB stuff? If you are, I gotta ask how you're gonna absorb a cost like that.

If you're not, then it sorta explains itself.

If there's a will, there's always a way. Yes, at this point we're only doing paintball stuff but who's to say what happens a year from now.

The quality work product that you get from an ISO 9000 shop is in effect a saving (in a way). If you're guaranteed better products to specs, then there's less of a hit on the QC and warranty side. We would much rather have the highest probability that our products are good to go out of the box than to take chances with the market.

ISO 9000 manufacturing, if done cost-effectively, is definitely a win-win situation.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Regarding Iso 9000, I've been around the machine tool business for about 20 years now and I've yet to see the '9000 plague make an already good shop better.
It has however caused for a dramatic increase in meaningless paperwork
9000 is mostly about documenting process, there actually is another standard that
I don't remember/couldn't find about actual product quality.

remember the cheapest nastiest thing you can buy can still be iso9000.

Dude, you know that it's not just the documentation. To over simplify it that way is inaccurate. ISO 9000 compliance ensures that tolerances can be checked independently by a "regulatory organization". Compliance to the standards means that you must ensure your tooling and equipment will not fall short of the standards set.

We can have +/- .001" tolerances out of some dude with a Bridgeport in their basement but once you go on production, who ensures that he must change his toolings so that they don't deviate from that standard?

COMPLIANCE holds people to a higher standard. If people are afraid to be held to a higher standard then so be it.

Multi-million dollar companies pay dearly for the honor of being ISO 9000 certified because it means something. Joe Bob in his basement shop who does custom milling, regardless of the quality of his work, won't see getting that certification to be worthwhile.