ICD Freestyle - the future AGD gun now?

[rkjunior303]

I like to think of it as utilizing the "pimp hand"

[PBX Ronin 23]

LOL. Pimp hand is right. But it won't work unless you can back it up with performance.

[FallNAngel]

From a technical standpoint, although there are similarities in operation between spool valved guns (Freestyle, 03 Shocker, DM4-5 and Matrixes) and the Mag, the functionality is drastically different.

Just keep in mind the Freestyle is a blowforward, like a Mag, not a spool valve.

[FireITup14]

this is a little off topic but am i the ony one who dislikes the milling on the freestyle. i kinda think it doesnt flow right. maybe im just weird

[cledford]

With the market being the way it is now, players seem to change their guns more often depending on what's hot. With this current situation, the advantages of longevity is no longer as desireable. That being said, should there be a shift in Airgun Design's paradigm? Should future designs be based more on the "bling-bling" effect instead of what they've (and most hard-core AOers) traditionally insisted upon........quality?

My hope is that Dave Z can continue and build on the success that Tom has enjoyed but with a twist. Seeing the way the market is now, perhaps more emphasis should be given to Form instead of Substance. It certainly has worked for others.

[Pstan]

I agree Cledford


Nice to see someone with your stature bring something like this up.......others would be flamed into a fine powdery substance by now.

[rkjunior303]

this is a little off topic but am i the ony one who dislikes the milling on the freestyle. i kinda think it doesnt flow right. maybe im just weird

If the milling flowed with the trigger frame, it'd look alot better.. Judging by what the DC guys said, ICD nornally sends out JUST the body to get milled leaving the frame to be plain... When DC comes out with their Freestyle, they expect to get trigger frames as well and will mill it accordingly. I'm excited to see it.

[CoolHand]

If the milling flowed with the trigger frame, it'd look alot better.. Judging by what the DC guys said, ICD nornally sends out JUST the body to get milled leaving the frame to be plain... When DC comes out with their Freestyle, they expect to get trigger frames as well and will mill it accordingly. I'm excited to see it.

Yeah, but the frame on the Freestyle is a clamshell type, just like the Timmy uses, so the sides are very thin. I wouldn't look for much past some fancy engraving if anthing on those big flats just above the grips. That's all hollow in there to allow clearance for the 'noid and the electronics. They could use a bolt on piece, like the Timmy does, they would have to have a corrispondingly larger body to make them match up (kinda like they did with the eye covers in the stock version).

It'll be interesting to see what they do though.

[magking1971]

Thanks for bringing up the freestyle cledford. It is something to look into when I am going shopping for a new marker.

[Kaiser Bob]

I agree Cledford


Nice to see someone with your stature bring something like this up.......others would be flamed into a fine powdery substance by now.

Hehe, Calvin has been in his share of flamefests

[PBX Ronin 23]

Cal, I'm with you on most of the things you've stated in this post. In particular, your uncompromising position regarding quality and maximizing the cosmetic side. But from a practical business standpoint and based on certain manufacturing knowledged that I am aware of, a company WANTS to keep their cost of goods sold as low as possible and keep their selling price to the market as high as possible. That's just a sound business premise and if a company can get away with it, more power to them.

My point is this: The margins between the manufacturing cost of an X-Mag and what they're sold for is extremely low compared to the margins of an 03 Shocker or a DM4/5. These two markers, although presented in the marketplace with intricate "cosmetic-driven" machining actually cost less to manufacture vis-a-vis the X-Mag since the critical components (the internals) are cheaper to manufacture. From a technical and design standpoint the X-Mag is a far superior gun...anyone who would argue this point is either a victim of hype, works for a different manufacturer or are just incapable of being technically discerning.

Between the AGD, SP and Dye, which one benifitted greatly from the point I've made above? Both you and I know that two of these guns, whether by intent or not, are at some point in time going to fail because the wear down in their respective components are more drastic.

Quality cost money. The more time a company spends in designing and producing a product to last a long time, the less margin they make on their products because they have to compete in the a marketplace where the competition doesn't neccessarily share the same perspective on the issue of product longevity.

That being said, if a company can sell guns (a lot of them) in a marketplace where the consumers are more apt to get rid and change their guns at an alarmingly high rate, which of the three companies are more likely to reap tremendous financial gains?.

As a player I agree with you on the quality part. But as a pragmatist, I will humbly beg to differ.

Lastly, the biggest piece of the pie that companies are striving to capture are the low-end/entry level market. The numbers just bear that out. The niche that AGD was going after in the scenario market is a niche that's practically attainable and may still prove to be a boon for any company that wishes to occupy it.

[Toxic Dave]

Mel;

The costs of making parts right and making parts good enough to work is neglegible. If you work with, or have a good shop then it's easy to accomplish the desired results. If your design/ engineering team are any good it's even easier.

dave.

[garto]

Alright.....I don't post much as others think its a waste of their air when I do but....

AGD has done something great. They are part of the paintball history books but currently their products do not lead towards a greater goal so much. It seems to me that right now the most guns being sold are sorts of electro guns. Everyone who plays around here (i.e. majority) use electric sear trippers or electro-pnuematic guns. It just makes sense that AGD would shoot for a faster gun that is easier to produce.

The valves have been perfected, we all know that but what hasn't happened is a way for them to be brought down in cost. I'm not sure but I believe aluminum is much cheaper to machine because it is not as hard of a metal so wouldn't it make sense to sell all aluminum guns in the entire line up. Also produce an aluminum version of the classic valve, makes sense because that valve has withstood the test of time and its lighter.

Next work with outside sources (i.e. rougue, deadlywind, and nicad I believe) to work towards better asthetics for the gun. The best thing to do would be to make rails and bodies that flowed together like unibodies but were still two parts and that also flow into the frames better. Yes, the banjo bolt idea dropped because it was probably harder to manufacture but it does look like the best bet. Look at the other guns on the market, the vert adapter holds the air without any lines dangling from them and no hoses coming across the trigger frame.

As for the speed of the marker, AGD already has all the tools needed. ULT is awesome and should be standard in every marker, it wouldn't make sense not to as the reason many turn away from mags is because of how hard it is to pull the trigger. For the electronic offering, make a new frame that has the solenoid of the emag and just stick a regular 9-volt in there to power it. If you can modify a spyder frame (which currently costs the same as an intelliframe new) to work a mag then AGD better be able to find a way to use that technology. An ingenious way to do this would be to modify all AGD frames so they had the mounting screws for the solenoid, battery and board regardless if they came with it or not. It would mean that AGD would manufacture the same frames for all their guns, intelliframe, y-grip, and some vert frame.

The automag is a great gun! Absolutely one of the best out there no doubt but rather then make something purely functional, add design to it too. Hop into the new trends a little and start putting out different body versions. I can see it now, advertisements for AGD in the magazine "The new and improved AGD!"

Also this site is for the diehard fans really but honestly if AGD wants to leave all the stigma of their marker line behind, produce a different name. Make ULT, lvl 10, vert feed/warp feed, and double triggers standard. That way theres no confusion with the old mag because while *WE* know its all the same....the average Joe might not. Also I hate to say it but AGD might want to start dealing through National because here at my local shop I went in asking for the ULT for an AutoMag and they barely knew I was talking about paintball. Marketing is key as well as packaging, AGD sold the internals years ago but they still havent figured out the packaging yet.

*Please don't flame me as I probably don't know as much as you do or have as much experiance but I try and thats better than not. Also on a final note*

AGD shouldn't look into finding a way to make the gun electro-pnuematic because I always hear of those solenoids going out or something happening to them so keep the same design. Also, it would save a bunch of money on R&D because making something look good compared to making something work is a lot easier because theres not really an issue of what could go wrong.

[CoolHand]

Mel;

The costs of making parts right and making parts good enough to work is neglegible. If you work with, or have a good shop then it's easy to accomplish the desired results. If your design/ engineering team are any good it's even easier.

dave.

That is not necessarily true. Holding super tight tolerances does cost more than just OK tolerances. Tooling has to be changed more often, your machines have to be serviced more often, machine parts have to be replaced more often, your inspection process and inspection equipment has to get better (which = more $), and you will reject more finished parts. All of that will have a significant effect on cost.

I'm not saying that you should sacrifice quality for lowered production cost, I'm just saying that it would behoove them to "open up" their tolerances (or work on the design so that it doesn't need such tight tolerances) a bit, they could save a good deal of money (hell, even 1% spread over a whole year's production is a significant savings).

That's all I'm sayin'

[Duzzy]

Custom bodied Devil Mag (Chord, IT, Dallara, Karta etc.) with a 45 and/or vert frame and you should have a winner...

Fast, looks good, and you still get a good old Mag. It is an "electro" and has break beam eyes which is currently what everyone wants. And, if you started mass producing them you could probably just get under the 1k mark, if not, well people are more then willing to spend 16k on a new Intimidator, so why not 1.2k on a cool mag?