Official Deadlywind hAir trigger update

[Thordic]

I dont understand the hate? How are the consumers getting screwed?

Where do you see hate? I don't hate PTP.

But if you block a product from coming out on the market because you have a similar product, you had better come out with that product soon or you are going to piss of a whole lot of customers.

You people don't understand that the BUYERS control the market, not the manufacturers.

[Thordic]

Did you even read what I wrote?

I don't want PTP to not release their product, I WANT them to release it, ASAP. Reading comprehension is a useful skill. You learn it in grammar school.

[edweird]

I see it like this...

caveman 1 and 2 make similar wheels using objects already in existance ie 3 ways and other nifty phenumatic tomfoolery. caveman 1's product is uber good yet caveman 2's is nice but his squad of meathead lawyers prevent the release of the ubersause wheel cause they know they will be depantsed in the free market economy. aka if ptp was willing to stand behind their product they would try and compete head on instead of cockblocking.

so with that outta the way, enjoy your square wheels all, for im a whore for quality.

[50 cal]

Paintball has finally grown into a big enough industry that you will need to look out for your backside. If you have an idea, patent it and get it ready for market. It's a hard truth, but it's the truth like it or not.

[ScatterPlot]

I wonder if DW could make just the special valve for the gun, then somebody else like coolhand or someone could make the cylinders and install them for people, who could then put on their own reg

[rabidchihauhau]

you can't assemble an infringing product from non-infringing components without infringing on the patent.

edweird - have you shot either system? If not, how can you state that one is 'uber' and one is not? (You may have shot the hAir, but I know you haven't shot the pneutrigger.)

In the real world, PTP INVENTED this system. DW re-invented it. The proof is in the history.

[Creative Mayhem]

Without getting all up in arms over who's right and whos wrong, I just have a couple things to say. You can take it at whatever value you see fit.

Edweird was simply making a general statement. He and the rest of AFTICA(myself included) used DW's hAIR trigger at IAO last year, and it truely was awesome. Myself, and the others who have tried the hAIR, obviously have no point of comparison, but we can hope that PTP's version will be out soon and as reliable as the one DW has made.

Which brings me back to Ed's comment, he may have hinted to the Pneutrigger being inferior, he was simply stating that he wants quality(as do all of us) and to be honest, i have seen more than a few PTP products with less than spectacular quality. Does this mean that the PTP trigger will suck? Not at all, its just a desire that the quality will be there if there is intent to hold a proven design for mags at bay.

This is also the reason why there has been a letter writing campaign started, we aren't happy with the situation, but we are trying to accept and give PTP a chance to help those that wish to have a high ROF mech mag.

[nicad]

1. the hAir was mechanically complicated; the Pneutrigger has MUCH better engineering
2. the hAir was relatively expensive to manufacture; the Pneutrigger design took mfg into consideration and is easier/simpler to manufacture
3. the hAir is a 'concept' design (let's see what we can do): the Pneutrigger was purpose-built to achieve a series of design goals, was approached in a phased manner and has many, many generations of development built into the idea. There were engineering requirements for things like safety, cross-platform application, etc., that were taken into consideration before the first screw was set.
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edweird - have you shot either system? If not, how can you state that one is 'uber' and one is not? (You may have shot the hAir, but I know you haven't shot the pneutrigger.)

rabidchihauhau- There are 4 people outside of DW who know the insides of the hAir. You are not one of them. Please quit talking about how it works.

In the real world, PTP INVENTED this system. DW re-invented it. The proof is in the history.
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I'm sorry if they and you think that they invented the damn thing first, but I am here to tell you that the genesis for PTP's work on the idea dates back to pre-2000 days and DW are not the only people in the world who are capable of inventing cool high-tec for paintball.

[skife]

Originally Posted by rabidchihauhau

In the real world, PTP INVENTED this system. DW re-invented it. The proof is in the history.
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I'm sorry if they and you think that they invented the damn thing first, but I am here to tell you that the genesis for PTP's work on the idea dates back to pre-2000 days and DW are not the only people in the world who are capable of inventing cool high-tec for paintball.

since when were rams, valves and hoses high-tech?

i've got an idea in my head about how the hAir Works, i'm not sure if its right or not, but i'd like to think it is, in my head, its reletively simpe and the technology has been around since the early 90's

[Maghog]

It is so sad to watch paintball deteriorate,
Dan

[rabidchihauhau]

I'm not 'up in arms' about this thing, but I am personally annoyed about it. Why?

Here's why.

PTP has spent YEARS being ripped off by other people. I can't even begin to tell you how much of what every player uses on a daily basis was originally designed and brought to market FIRST by PTP - only to have it copied, ripped off, etc., by other companies.

During all of that time (15+ years in the industry) the company NEVER took retaliatory measures - they sucked it up and kept moving forward.

Percentage wise, PTP has offered more support and aid to beginning teams and tournament series than just about anyone I can think of; among other things, it was one of the first, if not the first sponsor on board with institutions like the IAO, NPPL, the Memphis Indoor, Jax Warriors, Team Strange, etc. Often in circumstances where it could ill-afford those expenses, but it went ahead and did it anyway to support the industry and the players.

PTP puts a LARGE percentage of its effort and dollars into safety - more so than the vast majority; they are in large part responsible for things like the goggle standards, the requirement for a trigger guard on all guns, standardizing the weight of paint and, again, making untold numbers of substantial contributions at their own time and expense.

Then, after all of the foregoing, PTP had to face the reality that they could not continue to support such efforts without making some changes, one of which was to start investing in intellectual property protection for their concepts and designs.

That, too, carried with it a tremendous investment in time and dollars; it was done the right way, with the intention of using it to protect PTP's investments and never done to 'do' other people.

So far, PTP has engaged in numerous IP negotiations with other paintball companies - none of which have been seen by the public, none of which have raised an eyebrow or caused anyone to question PTP's motives - at least one of which contributed greatly to the the 'Automag cause'. (It was PTP's patent that become the E-Mag...)

This thing, however, has gone way beyond all reason: people with little or no ability to be able to compare two products side-by-side making claims of superiority: people with little or no experience with business trying to tell PTP what to do with ITS dollars, time and resources: people with no knowledge of the history of this thing casting PTP in the role of 'bad guy': people with absolutely no knowledge of intellectual property law making snap judgements about PTP's motives.

And why? two reasons. DW decided to hype their product (the future of which was not secured even for manufacturing by DW at the time) and a bunch of people decided to make them the 'good guys', for no apparent reason other than they were 'promising' to deliver something that would 'save' the automag. Even if you go back to DW's own postings on the subject, there was NEVER any guarantee of if or when it would be on the market.

And the second reason? PTP's own reluctance to get on here and tell you all what has really happened behind the scenes. Its not anyone else's business but the parties involved. I can say, however, that PTP has entered into GOOD FAITH negotiations with anyone who was interested in pursuing such things.

So yeah, I'm pissed off at the way these threads have gone. You all ought to be grateful that I'm not the one that owns the patent; I'm much more cut-throat than the folks at PTP (as in, they aren't cut-throat AT ALL.)

I'm pissed at the way a company that I worked for for 7+ years is being portrayed, when I know from personal experience (and some degree of frustration) that PTP is anything BUT the kind of company some of you all have described it as, and it galls me on a daily basis to have to sift through the utter idiocy that I read in here. Talk about swallowing things hook, line AND sinker!

[Magaman]

In the real world, PTP INVENTED this system. DW re-invented it. The proof is in the history.

Um, Yeah, just because USA (America) developed a patent system and someone claims to have invented it first, doesn't mean that the other people inventing it "Re-Invented" anything.

If you have one guy in Texas and another Guy in Australia and they both invent a pneumatic assisted beer drinking straw . The Texas guy walks down to the local patent office and the Australian guy never patents it. Does it meant that the Australian guys product is now only re-invented and not His Own original Idea? Or what about a Poor guy that invents something and a Rich dude pays some less than rich people to invent something for him. The Rich guy has the means to pay a team of patent lawyers to make up a Ironclad patent while the poor guy is lucky to afford the materials to make his first prototype and put a copy of the plans with a picture of it in a Dated Safety Deposit Box... Does that Mean that the poor guy re-invented the rich dudes product...

If your going to Quote Voltaire then you should also try to open your eyes a bit...

[rabidchihauhau]

and, Colin, no, I'm not still with PTP. If you have issues, they're with me, not them.

I still stand by my invented statement. The things you mentioned were different designs and/or merely components.

My statement about mechanical reliability and manufacturing issues was based on Mr. Kayes own assessment.

[rabidchihauhau]

magaman,

open your eyes: I'm talking about the invention as it relates to what PTP has a patent on.

and your poor guy who invents something but can't afford to protect it is the way it used to be but isn't anymore. You can get protection for under $100.

Besides, you're another one who doesn't understand IP; the guy in australia can get an australian patent issued; if he and the guy in texas both apply for international protection, THEN it comes down to priority date (who got there first).

If there were NO patents, it would always be the big bad guy with money winning every time.

[hitech]

If there were NO patents, it would always be the big bad guy with money winning every time.

Even with them it still usually is. History is full of examples, all the way back to the Wright Brothers...