Official Deadlywind hAir trigger update

[11_Mile_TMaster]

Don't forget the Sheridan Equalizer, as well as the Air Power Vector.

Wonder if Crosman likes someone patenting their intellectual property... you might be able to strike a deal with them, and have their weight to put behind this.

(Which brings the question.. does BE own the properties of the Vector from the Rainmaker patent?)

Just an idea :) Good luck either way.

I don't believe that the Vector patent is owned by Brass Eagle. The Rainmaker patent, however, lists a former Air Power employee as one of it's inventors. My assumption is that each patent was worded specicifically enough that they do not step on each others toes.
... And, uhh, I thought the Equalizer was just another Blowforward like the Mag/Badger/Armson Semi?

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

rant:on



I've been holding a few hundred dollars in my bank account for this very purpose. When nicad said the hAir was cancelled, I spent it on a new profiler, another barrel kit tip, and a couple of days skiing upcountry. Would I have been happier spending it on the hAir? Yes, the snow really sucked and I didn't really need a 10" tip. Would I have actually spent it on the hAir? In a heartbeat. Will I buy the pneumag trigger? Not at first.

You see, I've had prior experience with deadlywind's products - I bought a dallara body kit. It's well made. It's *beautiful*. It does what I expect. The price is high, but I'm a firm believer in paying for quality.

I've also had prior experience with pro-team products' stuff. I've owned and shot a stealth barrel, I was going to buy another one (or two, for a project mag). I've seen, used, and sold a lot of the f/x gear they make for tippmann's markers. I've used the warp feed adapter, I've mounted a few PTP warp feed kits to markers. The company as a whole leaves me with a good experience, but there's nothing stellar about it, nothing really stands out.

AGD gives me the warm fuzzies, DW gives me the warm fuzzies. Proteam doesn't, for whatever reason. So I'll support the companies in that way - I'd be one of the first in line to pay $500 for a hAir trigger from DW, or a hAir trigger from AGD, because I know neither Colin nor Tom would settle for anything less than high quality gear. I won't do that for proteam, because the blind fanatical trust hasn't settled in yet. Once I'm convinced that they are a company that produces an excellent product all of the time and will stand behind their stuff (not like they havn't in the past, but they've just been yet-another-company), and once I'm convinced that their pneumatic frame works and will be supported, then I'll buy one.


No offense PTP, but just look at the way the two frames are presented to us, the consumer. There's the DW hAir trigger, shown in a *well* *made* video, displaying the trigger action and it's rapid fire capabilities. Then there's the PTP autococker frame video, which isn't the best quality (I know, not a hype video, only had a digicam), which doesn't convey the same impression and is for the *autococker*. I know which one makes me want to buy the product now, and I know which one makes me go "meh".

I know autocockers are used more often than mags, I know it's a more "target-rich" market, and I know it makes no financial sense to develop a frame like this for a mag first. However, I own a mag, I have money, and I want a pneumatic frame for my marker. One of you two companies needs to work out all the little details, launch a hype campaign (again), and then make yourselves rich off of people like me. And you'd best do it soon, before I build my own darn pneumatic frame.

rant:off

First of all note that I didn't say ALL. I said most wouldn't. I agree with almost every point that you made about paying for quality and I didn't say Deadlywind or AGD ever put out crap. I said other products were hyped on AO and got a lot of "I'd buy that in a second!" posts. When the product was released, the sales weren't there........

[hitech]

One reason for a clause like that is keep someone for "infringing with no intent to sell",then they sell you a pair of grips for $200 and throw in a free grip frame.

An action such as that would create similar 'damages' as any more obvious infringments and therefore is not exempt from the Patents protections.

Sure, that would create damages. However, if someone made one and truely only used it themselves, what would "you" (i.e. the patent holder) be able to sure them for?

[hitech]

Not even Smart Parts would think about implementing a Gestapo to patrol paintball fields for guns that infringe a patent.

This is a theoretical discussion of what one COULD do, not necessarily what one WOULD (or even should) do. It was also only posed as a remedy for widespread copying of a patent. What would you do if say 20% of people showed up at a major tournament with "homemade" versions of your patented product?

[rabidchihauhau]

No more commentary.

[Timmee]

So what would happen if the person that owns the pneumatic Mag that Punisher made, tried to use it in a tourney (assuming what rabidchihauhau said was done, with scrutineers at the tourneys)? That 'Mag's trigger setup was made BEFORE PTP's filing date, but how would it be proven?

[RRfireblade]

That 'Mag's trigger setup was made BEFORE PTP's filing date, but how would it be proven?

Don't think it was. He also just bolted a Cocker front end (off the shelf parts) on a Mag.

This is a theoretical discussion of what one COULD do, not necessarily what one WOULD (or even should) do. It was also only posed as a remedy for widespread copying of a patent. What would you do if say 20% of people showed up at a major tournament with "homemade" versions of your patented product?

20 poeple? Hmm....Set my Alias on DB1 and smoke 'em all?

Let's seee this is Tourny ball right? Call Gino at NPS, make deal under the table and get Mechs outllawed for Tourny Play.

No wait, add an addition "non Battery" surcharge on all markers to be used.

AH...that would be dirty pool.....wait.....what were we taliking about?

Seriously, 'could" and 'would' are way different things. "Could" a cop give you a speeder for +2mph? Would he?

"Could" you file C&D and then file actions against 20 individuals at a rediculous cost to yourself with little or no potential gain? Would you?

[athomas]

I'm not a lawyer so I don't 100% know the correct answer to this, but I once read in a legal article that you could build anything for yourself and not interfer with the legal rights of the owner of a patent on the product you copied. As soon as you made the item for others, then you were infringing on the rights of the patent holder and could be charged.

To summarize, there is no way to stop a bunch of people from using a copied product. It is not illegal. It is illegal to copy the product for distribution. You can't make profit (even $0.00) off a copied item.

[hitech]

20 poeple?

20%, but the idea is the same.

Seriously, "could" and "would" are way different things. "Could" a cop give you a speeder for +2mph? Would he?

Yes, that was the point.

Also, and maybe I'm wrong, but I still think that the only thing you can sue a potential patent infringer for is damages. I don't think "they" can show any in a homemade, personal use only item. As an example, I don't believe PTP can recover any damages from DW for the existing hAir, nor can they get a judge to order it turned over to PTP.

[hitech]

As soon as you made the item for others, then you were infringing on the rights of the patent holder and could be charged.

As i understand it, when you do that the patent holder incures damages. The people you gave it to possibly would have purchased it had you not given it to them. However, and I'm far less sure of this, it possible that if you could PROVE that they would not have purchased it had you not give it to them, there may be no damages. Maybe...

[TheTramp]

The only way a patent holder could "seize" copies of the item is if they could demonstrate that the copies are intended for distribution. That includes giving them away free.

For example: Here in Boston 1000's of "phony" World Series t-shirts were ordered by the court to be destroyed because it was obvious that they were going to be distributed. The maker of the fakes couldn't even keep them for "personal use."

Now if they'd just made a few for their friends I don't think Major League Baseball would have bothered suing over it.

[Lohman446]

A patent holder can sue to have them "rendered useless" or confiscated. However it takes a court order to do so, and would be awfully expensive to do against someone who is using it for personal use. Can they, yes... does it ever happen, not really. But its kind of like the music thing, noone ever thought the record companies would go after individuals - they always had the right to, and they did. The fact with most individuals, even if the court awarded damages (which they could) collecting on that judgement is unlikely.

[Conversekidz]

I might have miss read something but I do not believe someone who holds a patent could go after a private person who makes something for their own use. Hence if we had pictures of the hAir trigger and the list of items use to construct it PTP couldn't do a thing about it.


If deadly winds really wants to sock it to PTP all they would have to do is tell people what they did to make the trigger. PTP could not stop them from the free exchange of information. For that matter someone should pull PTP's patten and just see what it is they pattented and show EVERYONE on AO the patented material so we can make our own triggers.

[CoolHand]

. . . . . For that matter someone should pull PTP's patten and just see what it is they pattented and show EVERYONE on AO the patented material so we can make our own triggers.

There you go ----> PTP's Patent (or one of them).

Take those techincal drawings and call me when you get one built.

[bunker17]

i guess youre having some fun giving them leads on this holy grail quest this si turning into