Is there REALLY any need for a Super Mech

[MindJob]

Well in my neck of the woods, business has been steadily growing selling mostly mechanical mags. This has been the case for the last few years. People say they are dying...I dont believe that to be the case at all. The average Joe Paintballer will always want(or have to) start out with a mech. As long as paintball keeps growing, there will always be newbees who want them...and seasoned veterans who know where its at will continue to purchase them. Don't get cold feet on me now Mel!

Yeah, but what Newb wll spend $400-500 on a RT Mag that can only run on nitro, when they can spend $200 on an inferior E-Spyder and run it on co2, saving the aditional cost of a Nitro tank.

Then that same Newbie a year later after seeing everyone else's Timmies, DM4s and Shockers puts the E-spyder on ebay and decides to upgrade.

Not to a high end mech, even though some do. The majority dont.

While the Mag is definately NOT a dead as some on PBN would like to think.......
AGD is going against market trends by focusing on mechs. BUT, its either do that, or get sued. So everyone has to hold their breath and see what becomes of all of the legal messes.

Oh, and BTW,
Has anyone noticed the attention that the "Do-it-youself" electro conversions get? I know it would be trouble for anyone who made a bolt on e-frame for the mag, but maybe the solution is to produce a DIY kit.

[j.storm]

I think, to a degree, that spyders and all of it's clones are the "first stage" guns. Most people I know start out with something of that caliber. These are those very same Joe Paintballer's and they usually don't go very indepth into the upgrades available to make those low end markers top notch quality. They just throw on the usual basics....expansion chamber, barrel, bolt.....and then they don't really get much deeper. Then, 'ol Joe PB looks for something better....either a mag or cocker is what I find around here.....and then they kinda start the process over. Going electronic for those folks is one of those "i'd love too, but I have bills to pay...maybe someday" type things. So Mags are a "second stage" marker in my experiance. ....talking mostly rec ball/woodsball here......

[LudavicoSoldier]

I think it really depends WHERE you are playing paintball. If you are in an area away from big fields, I would say the likelyhood of selling a mech gun would be better. If you dont have to live up to the tourny guys at the field, then why would you need/want a gun that sprays an obscene amount of paint? The niche markets need to be supported. Everyone does not want the latest/greatest/flashiest gun on the market. Some people like the unique/strange markers. I know I do. I'd take a IMPd PMI1 to the field just to get the "wtf is that!?". I dont want to be the same as everyone else, though that is what paintball as a whole seems to want me to be.

[XbeasleyX]

..

It is really starting to aggrivate me how everyone thinks that just because a marker is a nice electro that it ramps. I used an Icon Z for the first two years of play, then I started looking for a higher level gun I considered an RT Mag ~ $500 or a 04' B2K for about the same price. I chose the B2K because it was the kind of gun I picture myself with in a competitive setting werein 95% of people where shooting well over 10bps and I'll admit it I bought the Electro because I wanted to shoot faster. But back to my original point NOT ALL ELECTROS ARE CHEATER GUNS. /end rant.

[shartley]

Yeah, but what Newb wll spend $400-500 on a RT Mag that can only run on nitro, when they can spend $200 on an inferior E-Spyder and run it on co2, saving the aditional cost of a Nitro tank.

Then that same Newbie a year later after seeing everyone else's Timmies, DM4s and Shockers puts the E-spyder on ebay and decides to upgrade.

Not to a high end mech, even though some do. The majority dont.

While the Mag is definately NOT a dead as some on PBN would like to think.......
AGD is going against market trends by focusing on mechs. BUT, its either do that, or get sued. So everyone has to hold their breath and see what becomes of all of the legal messes.

Oh, and BTW,
Has anyone noticed the attention that the "Do-it-youself" electro conversions get? I know it would be trouble for anyone who made a bolt on e-frame for the mag, but maybe the solution is to produce a DIY kit.

[Vanced]

Well in my neck of the woods, business has been steadily growing selling mostly mechanical mags. This has been the case for the last few years. People say they are dying...I dont believe that to be the case at all. The average Joe Paintballer will always want(or have to) start out with a mech. As long as paintball keeps growing, there will always be newbees who want them...and seasoned veterans who know where its at will continue to purchase them. Don't get cold feet on me now Mel!

I agree with Tuna,

I don't know if there is a place for the "super mech" out there... ( Unless the Loop hole for capped electro's open up) ... except for a small group of hard core guys...

But there is a place for the Mag. All I know is what I see in my group of friends. We are all in our mid twenties, have carrers, families, etc. that we can't & don't want to be feild junkies, constantly tweeking tuning and upgrading, and constantly spending just to keep the gun functional and up to date... (note: or we are just a bunch of red necks who want another excuse to wear cammo and go shoot each other when hunting season is out)

But bottom line is when we want and more often get the rare chance to play.. we want NO downtime...

We only play once a month or so during the season, and are playing more and more scenerio as the local rec ball fields close up and are replaced with speedball type fields... which we still play sometimes but can't play just speedball...and don't want too... there were only 2 hard core Mag guys in our group of about a dozen. Myself and one other with the rest using Spyders, Some Elec. some not, Tippmans, 1 cocker, or rentals.

But in the last few years Tuna is right... I've added 3 more mags to that group, and I know of at least 1 more that plans to have one by the end of the season. Because they like where the mag is going and are learning to appciate what it offers...

I think we all agree the Mag isn't going to own all the fields and have commericals on during Sportscenter... but it does continue to survive, by doing what it has always done... and doing it better than anyone else...

We are not the biggest market group, but we are a group that is growing... and I am happy to say I have been here all along.

[SpitFire1299]

Ive read all the above posts... and its rare for me to post my opinion but...

I think that paintball guns are not all about speed and how fast they can shoot. Would you rather have a gun that can shoot 10bps accuratley? or 20bps very innacuratley? (talking more about low end markers) and also.. ive seen automags and tippmanns go through hell and still be alive, ive seen electronic markers go directly to hell.

Pretty much its all about how you like your gun. Some people are better with a mech than an electronic, i dont know. The automag could be considered a super mech because its trigger pull is so light, and it keeps up and stays in its spot with a lot of high end markers.

AGD ALL THE WAY

[jon-boy]

Whole Post.

Hear Hear!

My second marker ever was a minimag. Had to sell it before I joined the Army, but once again, I'm back to my first love. And I'm not even going after the x-valve, ule, ult. (yet ) I've got a classic with a few upgrades. And I talk mags up with everyone I come across who's into PB.

[teufelhunden]

ok, seeing as im one of those people who will never get rid of their mech, but still like their electros, i figure i should put my $.02 in.

*electronics and water: 2 words for that....Mardi Gras. splashes, rain, etc arent usually problems, but when the field becomes a bowl of soup, just watch how many electros get shorted out.

*market: is there a large market for a super mech? not right now. could there be? maybe. im fairly mechanically inclined and id wager a bet that in the long run, super mechs could be made faster, shooting legally, than electronics.

*efficiency of mags: ok seriously, everyone needs to just stop complaining about the efficiency of mags, especially tourney players. in tournaments, you get refilled between games anyway so no worrys about running out. also, i can get atleast 3 pods and full halo out of my mags and still have about 1500psi, and thats with them running at 1200psi, i get more when i drop to about 800. even in say 10 man, back players just need to use a 88/4500 and they can have enough paint. if you need more paint than that on the field, then your team needs to learn how to move and make things happen.

*rof: i support an industry wide cap on the rof of electros anyway, and since mechs cant be governed, this would lead more people to the super mech because of this possible loop hole.

again, thats my $.02

How many guns failed at Mardi Gras? If I'm correct, not many. There's a reason why you screw on the grips real tight, ya know Also, I believe many boards come with a water resistant coating.. that, or I'm losing my mind. My bet is for the latter.

Any two guns, side by side, both set up legally and to a user's preferences, will shoot at the same ROF. It's just a question of actually setting them up truly to the letter of the law.

The efficiency issue, as I've said before, is not about getting more shots out of your gun in a game. It's about being able to carry a smaller tank and still shoot as much paint as you need to, at least in tourney ball. In scenario games, depending on how you play, it certainly is about not being in the middle of a mission or something and then seeing 600 PSI.

You're right, there's no way to "cap" mechs, that I know of at least, although I'm sure Jay knows how to do it, since he's built ramping mechs before. But that doesn't mean they won't be exempted from the rules. It'll be up to the user to keep the ROF legal, the same way it's up to the user to keep a car under the speed limit.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Oh, and BTW,
Has anyone noticed the attention that the "Do-it-youself" electro conversions get? I know it would be trouble for anyone who made a bolt on e-frame for the mag, but maybe the solution is to produce a DIY kit.

That really won't get around the patent issue. It will still be an ingringement.

Sam, the problem is if your product demand isn't strong enough to take advantage of economies of scale, then either keep your margins low or sell at an obscene amount. True there may still be a demand for niche products but as a businessperson, would you really rather cater to that market or the larger segment?

Tuna, you're the dude that people sought after so I wouldn't be surprised if you're seeing a lion's share of that niche market.

[hitech]

And the reason they have removed the E-series from their lineup is NOT because of SP.

That is NOT true. When I suggested improvements to Tom for the eMag he told me that he wasn't going to do anything BECAUSE of the SP lawsuits.

[MindJob]

By inferior I was refering to craftsmanship and engineering... I never said "Spyders suck" or anything like that, but just stating the obvious. Although Kingman has come LIGHTYEARS from where they were a few years ago, there are still few markers or manufacturers who arwe in the same catagory ad AGD.

It was my understanding that the e-mags were a retired design. I also undertand that no new AGD electro would be out anytime soon. And YES, AGD took themselves out of the E-marker market for fear of a lawsuit. No, SP didnt make a move on AGD, but a small company like that was ripe for the pickings. Just look are ICD and AKA. Why didnt SP go right after National or WDP? They aer bigger and have more money to pay lawers with, and SP plans for world domination would have collapsed in their infancy with an early loss in court.

That is not the only reason, but I'm sure a major factor for the end of the AGD electro. Im also certain that the profit margin for an E-mag was RAZOR thin, and that they can easily make much more by selling mechs. What is an e-mag? An RT with about $400 worth of electronics on it. Plus. by retiring the line, meant no further money was spent on development. (example: 4.0 software that everyone is crying for)

Im also sure that without a new flagship electro, they were well aware that they could not compete with the newer more 'advanced' (take that however you guys want) markers. AGD is a small company, and by no means could dump the amount of sponsorship cash that would be needed to change the market trends. (Yes, TRENDS) In the past. AGD created many of the trends. They were the innovators.. and paintball today is still influenced by them.

As far as selling off the remaining e-mags,... how many people outside of our little AO community even know they are still available? Joe Public looks to places like 888paintball to buy gear. If by some chance some of these places still have e-mags left, more than likely they arent even Level 10, let alone ULE. And we all know how those old style stainless bodies and twist lock barrels are reguarded these days.

When people at the field see my X-mag, the usual response is WOW. It only makes me wonder what exactly would it take to make the E-mag more marketable. It may be as simple as adding a ULT on/off, making it run off of 9 volts, and putting some bad-arse ramping board in. Then again, what the hell do I know?

I just like that fact the everyone is so passionate about this subject that we all take the time to put or 2 cents in. But just keep in mind that sales in the paintball industry are supposedly way down (this is what is being said, I have no statistics to back that up) In any weak industry, only the strong survive. Right now, AGD doesnt look to strong. Being a loyal customer of thiers for years, I can only hope that this changes and do my part by buying their products and spreading the good word.

[Magaman]

Since almost all other manufacturers have gone Electro, Mag people seem to be at least 80% of the we like mechanical group... I personally want both, a Super Mech for Scenario and the occasional lighting up of a , "Yuck dude thats a mag" and an electro mag. I don't realy see whats wrong with the X-mags and the E-mags other than AGD had to stop production of them.

If the New, On the Shelf Mags, were electronic like everyone else and the boards were up to snuff supposedly like everyone else, you would see less of people wishing they had a Super-Mech... You guys have to admit, if AGD wasn't pushed back from pursuing electro-Mags in what ever way they wanted to, things would be allot different...

So since the majority of mag owners are either stuck financially with a mech mag or they just plain and simple like the mech mags they own, that is the reason for all of the "We want Super-Mechs on the AO boards..."

[Dayspring]

According to what lots of people have said, as well as Tom himself, scenario & rec players outnumber tourneyballers. So marketing a viable alternative to the electrowould be good business sense no?

Ten four that J....... but in business, wouldn't you rather appeal to the majority? Unless of course the minority would shell out money by the cart load.

[Magaman]

According to what lots of people have said, as well as Tom himself, scenario & rec players outnumber tourneyballers. So marketing a viable alternative to the electrowould be good business sense no?