Decrease ROF...WHY not DECREASE VELOCITY - Serious discussion

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  • PBX Ronin 23
    Registered User
    • Jul 2004
    • 518

    #1

    Decrease ROF...WHY not DECREASE VELOCITY - Serious discussion

    I just had a very long conversation with a prominent, long standing and respected member of the Paintball Industry about the potential ramifications of the sports current state of affairs as it relates to the ROF issue and cheater modes on electronic boards.

    This may very well be what killed the goose that laid the golden egg for people involved in the business of paintball. With the potential intervention of regulatory bodies that deal with consumer product safety issues, the potential increase in eye injuries that may be occurring with the rapidly increasing rates of fire and the velocity ramping modes that not only the custom board guys make but also the stock boards that some manufacturers install into their guns, it behooves the industry as a whole to start reconsidering the VERY REAL ramifications of this dilemma.

    Although injuries that occur at the fields have stayed relatively stable, it is the injuries that occur outside that environment that is worrisome. Such injuries and accident are covered by home insurance carriers. The rate of paintball related injuries outside of the regulated field environment has seen a steady increase. At some point in time, these increases will lead to the insurance companies lobbying not just for restrictive legislation but rather prohibitive ones. These insurance companies have the ability to shut down paintball as a sport and as an industry.

    So what now? In a comment I made earlier in connection with a rant on ROF, I specifically laid out that the industry and the sport have too many divergent interests and no universally accepted governing body to mandate the necessary corrective measures. As an example of this, take a look at the NPPL and who sits on the Rules Committee. I believe Mr. Ged Green, owner of WDP, is a member of that committee. If the NPPL is to be looked upon by us as one of the guiding forces in the industry when it comes to generally accepted rules, can they under the leadership of Chuck Hendsch enact rules that may be perceived as contrary to WDP's best interest? Can these two gentlemen separate the political issues that govern their participation in the sport and just focus in on doing what's in the best interest of all?

    Can the ASTM Sub-committee for paintball, play a role in safeguarding the future of the sport? They know what needs to get done. The problem that exists is that they have neither the muscle nor the political consensus to enact the corrective measure that they know they need to enact.

    Will the manufacturers see that it is in their own long-term best interest to act collectively in conjunction with the ASTM sub-committee and find a solution? Can they subvert their egos and prevent a potential catastrophe from happening? My guess, probably not. Their drive to compete in a market place predicated on a self-perpetuating arms race won't allow them to.

    Can the Players see that if they feed the supply with their demand for faster shooting guns and cheater boards, that they themselves are driving their own demise?

    I believe that there are just too many divergent interests and not enough common ground to facilitate a solution to this problem. Perhaps the solution isn't "how to decrease the amount of paint being shot" but rather to decrease the energy with which the paint impacts a target. What very few people know and what no one really cares to trumpet in public is that lenses in today's goggle systems can only take so many direct impacts before it fails. Check the warning labels and you'll know exactly what I mean.

    I hope that this post can ignite a worthy discussion and garner some thoughtful responses. It behooves the members of the paintball inteligensia who frequent this board to sound off their thoughts on this subject and the potential solution that I am espousing.
    /s/ Mel C. Maravilla
    PBX Battlezone
    PBX Paintball Station Inc.
    PBX Ballistix Lab
    PBX@NYC Paintball
  • Thordic
    AFTICA
    • May 2001
    • 5986

    #2
    Take a lens, stick it somewhere it can't move, and rail on it with paint. Start at 300 FPS.

    When it doesn't break, jack up the velocity and keep trying.

    A paintball doesn't have enough energy to cause catostrophic failure in a mask under normal circumstances. is it possible to maybe crack a lens? Yeah, possibly. But doubtfully in a way that will lead to injury.

    If you step down the velocity, then you lose range. If you lose any more range from the already low range of most paintballs, then you'll have a lot of player backlash.

    Has there EVER been an incident of injury to the eyes when proper protection was worn? I doubt it.

    Comment

    • JKR
      Stainless Steel 'Mag Lover
      • Sep 2003
      • 392

      #3
      Tapatalk brings you to people who share your own passions and interests. Millions of members are online now, sharing their expert opinions with others who can truly appreciate them. Tapatalk is different from traditional social media--the people you meet will be as excited by your hobby as you are.



      My opinions on the ROF issue begin with response seven and continue. To me, it isn't about limiting ROF or velocity. If you limit paint allowed on the field for each game, rec or tournament, then the matter would likely resolve itself.

      My responses also address the financial aspects of the issue as well.

      BTW, Good post PBX Ronin 23...

      I believe you hit the nail on the head when you stated: "I believe that there are just too many divergent interests and not enough common ground to facilitate a solution to this problem."

      Justin

      Comment

      • Muzikman
        Everything AGD
        • Dec 2000
        • 6229

        #4
        I would think that a decrease in velocity is just a band aid to the problem. Over the years many other sports (Nascar comes to mind) had to put a stop to things that might not have made the equipment mfg's happy. But at the same times, in these sports the people making the rules cared not about company 'A' making more money based on the rules.

        A paintball gun even at low velocity can still cause damage. About the only thing you might prevent is the mask breaking issues. I would really like to see the ASTM step in and do something. I see it the only way to calm the sport down.

        When guns started hitting 13bps I was thinking, damn, that's too fast. Now we got guns hitting 25+ bps and I am thinking, damn I can't carry enough paint.

        Comment

        • 68magOwner
          Registered User
          • May 2003
          • 3475

          #5
          as a player, i have noticed a huge increase in ramping or other ROF cheats on the field, i had practice yesterday with some CFOA teams, who, next season will be forced to shoot only 15bps, but, at practice, there were mumerious ramping markers, auto response markers, even a few full auto (refs really didnt care) and if a marker wasnt ramping, it was on debounce 1 just to level the playing field, now, there was overshooting for shure, but, it really wasnt THAT big of a deal, i think ramping adds another element to the sport, but, i dont feel that its not something that players cant learn to cope with. Now, off the field injuries....thats a whole nother monster.

          Comment

          • Muzikman
            Everything AGD
            • Dec 2000
            • 6229

            #6
            Originally posted by JKR
            http://www.network54.com/Forum/messa...eid=1105798804


            My opinions on the ROF issue begin with response seven and continue. To me, it isn't about limiting ROF or velocity. If you limit paint allowed on the field for each game, rec or tournament, then the matter would likely resolve itself.

            Problem is, that won't happen. Then the paint companies will not make as much money. If you allow unlimited paint but slow down the guns, the back players will still dump a ton of paint.

            Comment

            • Miscue
              Super Moderator

              • Oct 2000
              • 7105

              #7
              Ban electros! Best thing that can be done for the game.

              Comment

              • PBX Ronin 23
                Registered User
                • Jul 2004
                • 518

                #8
                One of the things that I alluded to but did not go further on is the potential for outside intervention to mandate solutions that the industry itself can solve on its own.

                We are, for the most part, still under the radar screen. Do we really want to become a big bleep on that screen?

                Thordic, I understand your arguement but the fact of the matter is I have seen enough players with lenses that have "cob webs" already showing on their lenses and are still resistant to immediately changing them. Eventually when enough stress is applied to any surface area, signs of stress will appear and eventual failure will occur if not corrected.

                A good post on "Lethal Energy" posted by Manike in Doc's board prompted my thought towards the decrease in velocity. As for range, on a regulation size NPPL field, you can shoot corner to corner at 250fps and still reach with the right arc in your shot. If rules on velocity decrease is enacted, players will adjust.

                I agree with Musikman, limiting paint is not the answer because it will encounter too much resistance on so many levels.
                /s/ Mel C. Maravilla
                PBX Battlezone
                PBX Paintball Station Inc.
                PBX Ballistix Lab
                PBX@NYC Paintball

                Comment

                • manike
                  INCEPTIONDESIGNS.COM

                  • Jan 2001
                  • 3820

                  #9
                  Mel, you are incorrect in assuming modern goggles can't take the rof or impact energy that they are likely to take when used in modern play.

                  I have some video's you might want to see sometime. :) Actually I think I posted them here before... I'm not even slightly worried about playing with a decent modern mask. You should just replace the lenses AT least every year, and after they take any serious abuse that shows visible problems.

                  Also if you want to reduce the energy so that you can't damage an eye, you'll need to be under 2ftlbs... which means 129fps... and even then it's debateable that you could still damage an eye.
                  Inception Designs - My new company where Innovation is the Inspiration

                  Comment

                  • nippinout
                    FUSP
                    • Jan 2002
                    • 1231

                    #10
                    Decreasing velocity will have a greater impact on energy then decreasing mass: .5mv^2

                    Tom Kaye once told us about how the old industrial guys thought of paintball as a whole: Instead of each man getting a bigger piece of the pie, they worked together to make the pie bigger. The pie has gotten bigger, but now there are some who want bigger pieces of the pie, topped with whipped cream, and perhaps even change the pie's flavor!

                    manike has shown us pics of a lens taking a whole lot of hurt from a very close range. I have great confidence in my lens.

                    You say that the number of injuries outside of commercial fields have increased. I think that this needs to be compared with the rate at which play outside of commercial fields have increased as well. It could be the same percentage, we just have an increase in the paintball playing population as a whole, but the same ratio of renegades.

                    Fast sells. But, it's the fields paying for the insurance. The field owners can put a cap on bps and fps. Their rules can be more strict that those of the insurance company or the ASTM standards. But remember that the ones getting all the media attenion are the idiots who shoot people walking on the sidewalk.

                    Tournaments are a small niche in paintball. Its the recballers that are the lifeblood of paintball. The manufacturers want to sell guns, and field owners want to sell paint. It's a minefield of conflicts of interest. But ultimately, the field owners pay the insurance. But if they cap at 200fps and 13bps, players may play at the field that allows 300fps and 30bps.

                    It's all FUBAR.
                    BAM!
                    TNS2K2's Viagra Adventure!

                    Comment

                    • manike
                      INCEPTIONDESIGNS.COM

                      • Jan 2001
                      • 3820

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Miscue
                      Ban electros! Best thing that can be done for the game.
                      Yeah, and allow Mechanical RT's at 26bps...
                      Inception Designs - My new company where Innovation is the Inspiration

                      Comment

                      • PBX Ronin 23
                        Registered User
                        • Jul 2004
                        • 518

                        #12
                        Simon, it's not the new lenses that I'm concerned with but rather the ones that have been structurally compromised and yet the owner of the mask still won't change it.

                        Decrease in velocity need not be the only possible solution to the problem. Possible ideas, I'm hoping, will arise from this discussion.
                        /s/ Mel C. Maravilla
                        PBX Battlezone
                        PBX Paintball Station Inc.
                        PBX Ballistix Lab
                        PBX@NYC Paintball

                        Comment

                        • nippinout
                          FUSP
                          • Jan 2002
                          • 1231

                          #13
                          Problem Solved!

                          BAM!
                          TNS2K2's Viagra Adventure!

                          Comment

                          • LudavicoSoldier
                            Red Sox National
                            • Jun 2003
                            • 1743

                            #14
                            Heh...all the things Tournament PB has made us worry about... I don't see any reason for leagues not to sanction a velocity limit. You don't need to shoot 280-300FPS to make it end to end on most all tournament fields.

                            A velocity limit lower than 300 just wouldnt fly in RecBall. Try punching through bushes at 250!
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                            Comment

                            • teufelhunden
                              Registered Bamf
                              • Jul 2003
                              • 2691

                              #15
                              A 250FPS shot may go corner to corner on an NPPL field, but will it break? The fact that you said with the right arc means I doubt it. With the right arc, I can shoot 300fps 200 feet [er, probably not, but you get it.


                              And besides, the injuries occur in backyards. The same people who have 4 year old, beaten to hell masks. Do you really think they're going to drop their velocity? Hell, do you think they have a chrono? The only people that would be affected is people who play at fields, the ones who already play safe.
                              SwallowBleach: It's good for you.

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