Decrease ROF...WHY not DECREASE VELOCITY - Serious discussion

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  • shatter_storm
    Registered User
    • Jun 2004
    • 315

    #31
    I can tell you right now that a reduction in FPS across the board will have a lot of people angry. Here's why:
    My local field changed over it's airball course to a plywood-and-nails CQB bunkerfest arrangement. It's all doors and windows, angles and walls. In the process of doing this they dropped the FPS limit to 240 - the reasoning being that because it's all much closer up fighting, having a lower energy on the paintballs will help prevent injury. The owners a very safety-minded individual, and I can't blame him - nobody wants to get sued because some kid got hurt at their field.
    However, 240 FPS sucks. Markers wern't designed for it, velocity spikes are much more problematic at that speed, and it's generally hard to keep everyone shooting below that level. Most paintguns are meant to operate at a certain FPS, with some variation so you can tune in barrel lengths, paint-to-barrel matches, atmospheric conditions, etc.
    Most markers are meant to shoot 280 FPS or 300 FPS. 240 is a fairly extreme drop - so much so that most of the markers at my local field need overhauls to shoot at that speed. Spyders need different mainsprings, automags need to rebalance their mainsprings and LX carriers, tippmanns sometimes need new mainsprings and have recocking issues, it's a pain in the rear. The angels and shockers that show up at the field from time to time have major dropoff, shootdown, shootup, and inconsistancy issues as well. One fellow that had come up from florida (I think) could *not* get his shocker to drop velocity down below 260 FPS, no matter what he did to adjust it. He ended up using a rental tippmann for the day - a humbling experience for an advanced player.
    The physics at that speed are also drasticly different. I don't know what the dimensions of a regular airball course is, but on this field you'd be hard pressed to reach end-to end at 240 FPS, much less corner-to-corner. Ball drop is really noticible, especialy because all the windows are cut at the same height. People who are used to 300 FPS will try and shoot 240 FPS and have a hard time adjusting to the trajectory. Shooting the course at 240 FPS and 300 FPS yields a different game - shots that arn't possible at 240 FPS are at 300. Lanes that can be held tight at 300 FPS end up having a huge spread pattern at 240 FPS. The ballistics are different and it takes away a lot of the consistancy and accuracy that you get at 280-300 FPS. Lobbing balls sucks.
    Another issue is paint breakage. Breaks just don't occur as often at lower speeds than at higher ones. Yes, up close you're going to see 230 or 220 FPS at impact, but when you try for midrange or longer shots you have to really pepper a person to get one to break on anything but gear or mask. Get used to that sort of effect on a field and you'll see overshooting at every range - because the balls just don't break. Another thing to think of is the increased tissue damage caused - yes, the balls are going at a lower speed, but bounces transfer a great deal more energy to the person, so it's the same effect as being hit full speed up close and having it break.

    My take on safety organizations and standards is that unless one regulating body steps up and sets for safe operating limits, and then requires insurance companies to require those limits to be enforced at the fields they insure, then nobody will accomplish anything. Local fields, especially up here in Maine, are divided on what "acceptable safe practices" are. My local field, which will sit you down for a half-hour for the first mask lift, runs strict rules and harsh (fair) penalties. A large amount of the other local fields have rather lax rules, and while I don't want to point specifics out, barrel plugs, chrony speeds, and mask use isn't strictly enforced and most violations result in warnings. I havn't visited every field in the area, and everybody has their up days and down days, but I don't see the kind of consistancy from one place to the next that an overseeing organization would enforce.

    Comment

    • MindJob

      #32
      There is no way that electros will disapear or be banned. The cat is out of the bag and it isnt going back in.

      Technology is causing the sport problems....
      but
      technology may very well be the answer to some of them

      Cheater boards can be too easily hidden.

      Maybe what is needed, is a board that can be flashed with legal software, right at the feild. This way, no one can smuggle in illegal software.

      This way, everyone is on equal ground.

      OF course this is by no means fool-proof, but I think that is would make it extremely difficult to get around the ROF rules.

      Comment

      • paullus99
        Knight Stalker
        • Apr 2004
        • 293

        #33
        As far as insurance goes, the regulated fields & the industry in general are paying for the outlaw/backyard ball that goes on every weekend across the country. Those injuries are passed along to the rest of us, regardless.

        I agree with capping the BPS, it only makes sense for the tourney scene - even NASCAR stock cars are supposedly all equal in performance......we'll see how this goes. Who knows, maybe a little skill will come back into the game.

        Comment

        • PBX Ronin 23
          Registered User
          • Jul 2004
          • 518

          #34
          Originally posted by MindJob
          There is no way that electros will disapear or be banned. The cat is out of the bag and it isnt going back in.

          Technology is causing the sport problems....
          but
          technology may very well be the answer to some of them

          Cheater boards can be too easily hidden.

          Maybe what is needed, is a board that can be flashed with legal software, right at the feild. This way, no one can smuggle in illegal software.

          This way, everyone is on equal ground.

          OF course this is by no means fool-proof, but I think that is would make it extremely difficult to get around the ROF rules.
          This is perhaps one of the best suggestions I've heard. The problem is, will the manufacturers comply. I can see Dave the NPPL Scrutineer run away with an idea like this. Great idea.
          /s/ Mel C. Maravilla
          PBX Battlezone
          PBX Paintball Station Inc.
          PBX Ballistix Lab
          PBX@NYC Paintball

          Comment

          • shatter_storm
            Registered User
            • Jun 2004
            • 315

            #35
            Originally posted by MindJob
            There is no way that electros will disapear or be banned. The cat is out of the bag and it isnt going back in.

            Technology is causing the sport problems....
            but
            technology may very well be the answer to some of them

            Cheater boards can be too easily hidden.

            Maybe what is needed, is a board that can be flashed with legal software, right at the feild. This way, no one can smuggle in illegal software.

            This way, everyone is on equal ground.

            OF course this is by no means fool-proof, but I think that is would make it extremely difficult to get around the ROF rules.

            Wait a minute. When the manufacturers arn't making legal software (smartparts), then what good is reflashing all the incoming people's boards going to do? We all know that at the highest of the high end, the pros don't even use their own gear - they use a common pool of sponsored team markers that are identical and ready to go. But that's not what happens on the local or divisional level, the players have to provide their own gear that conforms to specifications (if any). You'll have a kid with a shocker, a kid with an eblade, a kid with an angel, ten thousand kids with intimidators (bad joke, sorry), somebody with an emag, impulse, matrix, BKO, etc. All these markers use their own boards and their own software that is specific to the way each marker is set up. Yes, some of them are generic-action dwell-for-xx-ms-at-xx-volts markers, but why should everyone have to use the same board and same software?

            Comment

            • Southpaw
              Registered User
              • Aug 2003
              • 534

              #36
              Originally posted by teufelhunden
              The problem does not lie within established fields and tournaments. People aren't getting hurt there at an alarming rate. People get hurt, of course, but people get hurt walking down the street. The issue is with the outlaw ballers who shoot at 375 because "300 doesnt give us enough range" and don't wear masks "cuz masks are for pussies"...
              We should just mandate common sense. we should only make cars that go 65 mph and have huge oarnge bumpers and strobe lights so that pedistrians dont get hurt. Have how many pedistrian get KILLED every year?

              On a more serious note. When someone does not wear goggles It is their fault. When someone shoots at people on the street they should be criminally charged. If you hear about your friends shooting people you should turn them in! Mandating a lower FPS outside ranges will be followed just like it is now in outlaw ball RARELY. As for the people that shoot people on the street I would bet you they will not turn down the fps to commit a crime. only the people that follow the rules that play in an already safe manner will be "punished"
              Last edited by Southpaw; 01-17-2005, 06:24 PM.
              I think there for, I am I think. am I?

              Comment

              • hitech
                Not a shedder of vortices
                • Nov 2001
                • 4775

                #37
                Originally posted by MindJob
                Maybe what is needed, is a board that can be flashed with legal software, right at the feild. This way, no one can smuggle in illegal software.
                I don't assume you would be willing to place a wager on that? BTW, I know how to build a cheater board for an eMag that isn't even connected to the emags circuit board.


                Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD
                Hitech is the man.... :eek: - Blennidae
                The only Hitech Lubricant

                Comment

                • Phobos
                  dur?
                  • Sep 2003
                  • 165

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Miscue
                  Ban electros! Best thing that can be done for the game.
                  Ya, Ban electros about 15min after the Hair rigger finally gets released . Then you will see them all come crawling back to mags
                  Marker Set up:
                  E-Mag_________DataPimp69 Quick Disconnect rail
                  X-Valve________Rougeclamp feedneck
                  Dynaflow 201___Evil pipe kit 14"
                  Halo B _________Karta body, Aced
                  Big thanks to Havoc_online and Tunaman for the help too. A+ Service.

                  Comment

                  • PBX Ronin 23
                    Registered User
                    • Jul 2004
                    • 518

                    #39
                    Originally posted by hitech
                    I don't assume you would be willing to place a wager on that? BTW, I know how to build a cheater board for an eMag that isn't even connected to the emags circuit board.
                    But if there is a universally accepted "standard board" then maybe this idea is a plausible one. Have the players put whatever software they want. Let them assume the liability.

                    But come major tourney time, reflash everything to "legal" and put some kind of checkable seal on the port.

                    Let the outside world see a more concrete effort to enhance safety in our sport.
                    /s/ Mel C. Maravilla
                    PBX Battlezone
                    PBX Paintball Station Inc.
                    PBX Ballistix Lab
                    PBX@NYC Paintball

                    Comment

                    • CaliMagFan

                      #40
                      Soccer, or Football, depending on which side of the pond you're on is a good model for paintball. You have a bunch of players and coaches and equipment manufacturers trying to have the sport their way. But they can't, and why?. FIFA. A governing body that makes the rules, sets the standings, liscences refferees, and holds this little touranament every four years called the World Cup. We need a governing body that is not so connected to the players and the industry interest. I'll think of more in a bit, but for now i have to go back to work

                      Kyro

                      Comment

                      • Muzikman
                        Everything AGD
                        • Dec 2000
                        • 6229

                        #41
                        I use to race R/C cars and raced quite a bit of "Stock" class events on the national level. When you registered you got a motor to use. This motor had it's bell tabs either coated with a paint or a colored wax type material dripped into the tab indents. This prevented people from changing the winding on the motor. This seemed to work pretty well and each car was checked before going on the track. I can not say I ever seen anyone ever get busted for an opened motor.

                        I think Mel's idea would be the best, IF, you could figure out was way to make code that had the same specs for all guns that people would be using. Placing a tamper proof seal over the programming port and let them play the event.

                        I think the industry just needs to go back to one ball per pull and max ROF at 13bps. Then make sure that every board coming from the factory comes with legal software and that at events every gun is reflashed and sealed. Is this possible? Not likely.

                        Comment

                        • shatter_storm
                          Registered User
                          • Jun 2004
                          • 315

                          #42
                          Originally posted by PBX Ronin 23
                          But if there is a universally accepted "standard board" then maybe this idea is a plausible one. Have the players put whatever software they want. Let them assume the liability.

                          But come major tourney time, reflash everything to "legal" and put some kind of checkable seal on the port.

                          Let the outside world see a more concrete effort to enhance safety in our sport.
                          So who's making this universally accepted "standard board", and how are you going to get the manufacturers to accept it? Who in the industry is trusted enough and large enough to build that board and have people/companies accept it? SmartParts? WDP? K2? WAS?

                          I know if I owned a company that made pb markers I wouldn't submit to buying a "standard board", especially if it's one of the big PB giants that makes it. It amounts to a tax on paintball markers payable to whoever makes the board, and I wouldn't want to deal with that in addition to all the patent issues being dealt with in the industry.

                          Another issue is that with a standard board that people can reflash with whatever software they want, what's stopping *EVERYONE* from having a secret-code-locked ramping monster that they unleash on their friends at the local field? Yeah, it'll never pass tournament inspection, but most people don't play at tournaments! I heard a quote someplace that tournament players make up 2% of the paintball playing population - that number is probably a bit low. I heard another that the figure is someplace around 20%, which sounds a bit high to me.. Either way you slice it though, most of the paintball being played is woodsball, scenario ball, outlaw ball, or at a local field during casual or walk-on days. The game as a whole needs to be as safe as possible, but kids playing in their backyard arn't going to follow the same safety rules. "Sure, debounce 1 is fine, who cares... there's no ref here"

                          It's a nice idea, don't get me wrong, but it'll never take off unless there's an agency with the power and organization to enforce that sort of move, and enforce it to every manufacturer and every field and every player that goes out in the woods to shoot up their friends.

                          Comment

                          • hitech
                            Not a shedder of vortices
                            • Nov 2001
                            • 4775

                            #43
                            Originally posted by PBX Ronin 23
                            But if there is a universally accepted "standard board" then maybe this idea is a plausible one. Have the players put whatever software they want. Let them assume the liability.

                            But come major tourney time, reflash everything to "legal" and put some kind of checkable seal on the port.
                            And I can still build a cheater board for the eMag. It won't even be housed within the marker. Even if housed within the marker it won't be affected at all by reflashing the markers computer board. And with other markers reflashing the board and "sealing" won't do any good either. The cheater board would also be separate from the main computer board. And with the eMag, the marker could be entirely legal until it is "in my hands".

                            Originally posted by PBX Ronin 23
                            Let the outside world see a more concrete effort to enhance safety in our sport.
                            There is some value in that.

                            On the velocity issue. The maximum allowed velocity should match the conditions. If the field is short and most of the shots occur close up, the max. velocity needs to be less. If the field is larger and more spread out the velocity needs to be higher. Lowering the velocity on larger fields can actually be more dangerous, IMO. For the game at Fort Ord they lowered the max. velocity to 260 as they were worried that most of the shooting was going to be from one side of a house to the other. The problem with the lower velocity is that it necessitated closer ranges. The shooting was much closer because of the lowered velocities. Had they stuck with 290-280 or so, the shooting would have been more across the streets, instead of around a corner.



                            Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD
                            Hitech is the man.... :eek: - Blennidae
                            The only Hitech Lubricant

                            Comment

                            • teufelhunden
                              Registered Bamf
                              • Jul 2003
                              • 2691

                              #44
                              hitech.. only on an E-Mag tho. You'd be hard pressed manipulating the HES on guns that don't have one
                              SwallowBleach: It's good for you.

                              www.seckspb.com: for all your third party needs


                              Where have all the scooters gone? -BobTheCow

                              Comment

                              • hitech
                                Not a shedder of vortices
                                • Nov 2001
                                • 4775

                                #45
                                Originally posted by teufelhunden
                                hitech.. Only on an E-Mag though. You'd be hard pressed manipulating the HES on guns that don't have one
                                That is true. However, "you" could still build a cheater board that is separate from the main computer board. It would only need to be connected at the trigger input. It would be very small and easy to hide. It might even be possible to hide it in the switch itself. It seems very reasonable to expect that someone could build one that wouldn't be detectable at all by tournaments run ANYTHING like they are now.


                                Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD
                                Hitech is the man.... :eek: - Blennidae
                                The only Hitech Lubricant

                                Comment

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