Decrease ROF...WHY not DECREASE VELOCITY - Serious discussion

[PissedGodzilla]

There is no way that electros will disapear or be banned. The cat is out of the bag and it isnt going back in.

Technology is causing the sport problems....
but
technology may very well be the answer to some of them

Cheater boards can be too easily hidden.

Maybe what is needed, is a board that can be flashed with legal software, right at the feild. This way, no one can smuggle in illegal software.

This way, everyone is on equal ground.

OF course this is by no means fool-proof, but I think that is would make it extremely difficult to get around the ROF rules.

I'm sorry that I did not get a chance to post earlier in this discussion, but here is a very intersting suggestion. Using a regulation board will not only make production easier (and possibly cheaper for the consumer) it will show a penchant for as much safety as possible.



Here's my thing: How can we, as a sport, be responsible for those that use the equipment INCORRECTLY as stated? If I was playing golf, and hit someone in the face from 15 yards away, the guy might die. In fact, I am willing to bet there have been deaths from golf (just using golf as an example, btw) in this manner. What we really need to see if where our injuries as a total stack up to other sports where projectiles or similar injures can occur. Would anone know where to find that information?

[Chronobreak]

ahh nice to see nero get out of his wheelchair and post j/j

btw u can remove the pbn mod thing i took ur spot


with that having been said i compeltely agreee.

although the mask could probly be a bit stronger they are fine. although the lens isnt my main concern its mask that are detachable right udner the bottom of the lens where it coyuld come detatched and send a ball going uncomfortably close to the eye.

and after reffing for eyars ive seen hits to epopel wearing full facemask that stil got paint in their eyes whether it was from the top air holes or the bottom or EVEN the back side

freak accidents and occurances but one kid was in teh hospital for it.


most respectable fields dont allow full-auto unles they are really paint greedy in that case i mgith suggest playing somewhere else or sharing with the owner how u feel.

an indrutsy cap around 13-15 would be a GREAT START as well as maybe some trigger regulations like not below 250 grams or soemthing...

but the problem is who wil enforce it. like its been said with all the diff interest in the community most ifnot all companies wouldnt want to except the extra charge.

i really thin the tourney scene needs to set some strict guidlines that trickle down to the rest of us.

as well as renegae ballers...if they dotn want to follow the rules they wont. theyl shoot hot until somone gets seriosuly pelted from like 50 feet away. or clsoer

one kid even insisted playing without goggles...WITHOUT GOGLES..i mean come on...even swim goggles or shop goggles wouldve been better than NOTHING...its all about common sence people.

it would be commone sence to not shoot over 15~ but players dont care if THEY CAN or can get away with it. and the paint companies are making the paint $ and the uber fast cheater guns :coughnerve are making their $.


--also wanted to add ive seen poeple use the ame lens for 4+years..me being one of them i thought the whole new mask every eyar thing was a ploy for me to spend more $.... when my lens got a SMALL crack i immediately replaced it though.

[Lurker27]

Disjointed post follows. Warning.

First off, I'd like to say that analogies to other sports fail almost universally.

Limiting FPS accomplishes what? It limits range (effective range especially) significantly, because of the impact energy. Shooting at 220 is, realistically, a SIGNIFICANT disadvantage. You'd have to rework the shells of balls to break more easily, so now you have to have softer bolt systems (oh no, I have the mag guys salivating).

The best suggestion anyone can really make is the overall limiting of how much paint can be carried. Basically, this hamstrings the industry's ability to sell paint. However, it is everything that enforcing cheater boards isn't: easy to do. A cursory check will tell almost exactly how much paint a player is carrying, and in turn subjects the players to laws of economics, themselves.

Concern about major trauma from impacts is just sophistry. The protectice equipment is more than up to the task at hand. Injuries occur almost exclusively through player stupidity.

It IS almost impossible to stop electronics trickery. But I think almost all of us can tell when people are ROF cheating. What would get rid of the problem would be a "probable cause" policy. You maxed a reloaderB for 3 seconds consecutively? Impossible. Get out. I'm sure that certain people (I have a friend who I goldwaved at a legitimate 20bps over a half second period, no bounce) will be hurt unintentionally, but mostly you can tell who can rip, and whose gun is ripping for them. Watch a game from the sidelines, and you'll see what I mean. The nice thing about this system is that the only way around it is to stop cheating, or bring your cheating back to a marginal level (30% ramping might get through, for instance). In addition, its a harsh system that doesn't require a standardization which the industry would NEVER go for, because of the money. the vast majority of cheats, such as the 187 mod (clever way of essentialy breaking in a switch...grab a '99 angel that's been used heavily and take out the switch and you'll see what I mean...remove the ceramic cap and throw it on a timmy, db1) and other idiotic team number mods, are switches creating an autoresponse switch...completely outside programming.

Honestly, we CAN TELL, from the sidelines, if a guy is ROF cheating...I know bimills has told his story about people clearly shooting autoresponse and not getting pulled, but 2 things about that anecdote strike me...First, it was clear...and second, that was almost certainly in an age where ROF cheating was more rare.

In an age where manufacturers are putting blantant cheater modes (WDP, BL, TAG) and every "good" board can be set up to cheat (Mbounce is a joke) I think it may be the only real way.

[xXHavokXx]

The velocity 300fps is basically only used in tourney's most fields ive been to limit down to 285fps. That seems to be a satisfactory level. I've felt someones barrel on my chin when they shot me in the throat and I did not die, or have any lasting effects, been shot in the nuts, fingers, chin, arms, legs, torso, head and still have yet to be injured. My lenses have sustatined mulitple shots(upwards of 10 from a bouncing timmy doing at least 16bps) at 300fps and still protected me. Speed isnt the problem, bps isn't the problem. Safety standards are.

As the industry evolves, our equipment needs to as well. I believe our masks may need more than just hard rubber nubs slippng into softer rubber holes to keep them together, and yes they may need to extend to cover more of our heads, neck guards may be needed. The torso and legs are fine a majority of people shot by handguns survive and bullets impart way more energy and have penetrative quality than a gellatin ball travelling at 300fps. Arms are usually covered so aside from skin damage youre very safe.

What if someone was subjected to 30 shots within the same square inch of skin withing one second?....Who knows it is very unlikey to happen. Nerve damage? Possible but why would it happen except if someone had malicious intent, then it is no longer the gear's fault but the persons.

As for the ref who was knocked out: I've heard of one ref being knocked out out of the 50000 possible refs there are (figure made up as i have no possible idea of how many refs there have ever been in all time of paintball, this number seems reasonable small). 1 in 50000 is incredibly small, infact.....An insignifigant figure by most standards. Plus, how do we know it was the gear's fault? What if he was born with a thin skull ? What if his mask wasn't on properly? What if at that exact moment a meteor fell from the sky and only burned up enough to leave a microfragment that hit him at just the right condition and incidentaly the same time as that paintball to knock him out.

As for "skill": I always hear people *****ing about how ROF gets rid of skill....Bull. It creates new skills, this weekend we played against a team of kids, you'd be amazed but these kids were somehow surviving out 16+ bps streams and ropes of paint. How did they do it? Was it force fields? Are they ghosts? Or have they adapted to the situation and developed new skills in order to play? Naw, couldn't be, they had to have been cheating or wearing Dye gear. The skills necisary to play paintball have changed in the mainstream, no longer are we running around in camos pretending to be snipers or SEALS killing others, we are playing a sport, a game in which the goal is to score points and win.

I was talking to someone about this the other day, he said it takes no skill to play paintball any more. Just mash on a trigger and you win. My response was, while you mash on your trigger I'm going to mash back, one of us will get out first, the guy who adapts and learns how to move, shoot and be aware will win. The new game isnt about sneaking around like a ninja, its about being continuosly aware of everything. You have to learn when to move to avoid streams, you have to know how to move through ropes of paint, you have to change your plans and communicate BETTER than before, your buddy could keep a rope of paint of you with his own. Watch kids play with high end guns, you dont see the two biggest kids railing on their guns static anymore, they are dynamic, they are rolling their triggers while moving. The back player has to adapt moreso than the rest.

Why do we need 30 bps? Why was the machine gun invented? A rope of paint does more are aganst 3 players than a well aimed shot. 3 well aimed shots might take too long.

Evolution has brought the game new advances like HPa systems, electro guns, the HALO (my fav), better masks, Air bunkers, hellfire paint, and has brought the sport a lot of new people try out and play and decrease the cost to play for the rest of us, and pay my bills!

I think Manike is right ( not just because he drives a Corvette, which does give him points) lets work on improving out ASTM standards and make stuff more appropriate to current conditions.

[manike]

playing in a tourney with an almost brand new lense in my invision, i was shot from about 5 feet away, 3 shots hit my lens from a ramping marker, as well as abour 4 more to the rest of the mask. i come off the field and there is a perfect crack straight through my lense. one more shot would have broken the thermal second lense. i was lucky.

ive had to replace lenses because of being too close and taking a hit directly to the mask with no visible damage. i played with a new lense against some guys with ramping guns and it was about the 3rd time i had played with it. it now has spider cracks from when it got shot numerous times and i have to replace the lense.

Do you still use that same goggle/lens system?


If yes then, Why?

[Chronobreak]

i remember my first tournaments playing "HOPPERBALL" omg! NOW thats a rush playing a 3-man with 200 or less rounds depending on your loader...trust me you dont waste paint then again i wa slike 15 at that time..things are diff now but im not sure of its just that ot the sport has evoleved to this what i like to call a "mess"

there should be a paint on field limit(within reason .)
let bps be w/e if they use theyr alloted paint they use theyr paint...
that scenario would stil ahve certain bps limits within reason..no full auto crap etc

otherwise bps is capd at 15~ no bounce,ramp etc. allow w/e paint...but theoreticly i gues u could onyl shoot sooo much...

i would like to seee one of these things happen

[Lohman446]

i remember my first tournaments playing "HOPPERBALL" omg! NOW thats a rush playing a 3-man with 200 or less rounds depending on your loader...trust me you dont waste paint then again i wa slike 15 at that time..things are diff now but im not sure of its just that ot the sport has evoleved to this what i like to call a "mess"

there should be a paint on field limit(within reason .)
let bps be w/e if they use theyr alloted paint they use theyr paint...
that scenario would stil ahve certain bps limits within reason..no full auto crap etc

otherwise bps is capd at 15~ no bounce,ramp etc. allow w/e paint...but theoreticly i gues u could onyl shoot sooo much...

i would like to seee one of these things happen

Last hopperball tournament I played I took a powerfeed mag to. On the break I would turn the powerfeed off, turn and rail..... you would be surprised how well it works at throwing off the other team

My trick of the day that has nothing to do with this original thread

[Tyger]

Where do you get this from? It's JUST FLAT OUT WRONG.

I have the ASTM goggle standard in front of me right now and NOWHERE does it say anything about withstanding 13bps.

Please, PLEASE, try to get your facts right when talking about safety and standards, or DON'T say anything about them at all.

Then they've updated. My appologies. My ASTM info was from the PEC stuff from a while ago, and I was unaware there was a change.

-Tyger

[can'tthink of1]

Havoc, I agree with you that this is no longer running around out in the woods, but its been like this for awhile now. I have watched people and numerous vids I downloaded, and well, no longer do you see any movement, I feel, that as the bps has been increasing, people are no longer hitting the 40 even. People will run 10 ft to their bunker and just shoot, and continue shooting till their team has the upper side and then they finally start to bump up some. However, the majority of the time they were still just shooting at eachother, and no real movement has occured. They seem to be letting their bps do the work, and soon as the win is basically assured the bumping up and bunkering happens, all in a relatively short time compared to the time they spend shooting. THis may sound fun to you, but when no one is moving much, and they are just shooting, the game gets a little boreing. Movement has become serverly restricted by bps, and I know we can adapt, but still, its gotten to a point where us mear human's can't comprehend that amound of paint.

Also, while I feel googles are adequate, there are still issues with them taking too many hits. If you look out, and take 10 hits from 8ft away, I think your lense just may crack, and a paintball may potentially blind you. This hasn't been an issue really, since most people can control their bps, but with adrenalin running, and a fast ramping marker, who's to say it won't happen?

I also, its not one specific person or thing's responsibility, its everyone's, the refs, feilds, companyies, and down to the players. To get paintball back to where bps didn't control if you won/loss, everyone is going to have to make an honest effort.

[White_Noise]

Do you still use that same goggle/lens system?


If yes then, Why?

yes i do still use the same system.

1. comfort, havent found another mask that fits me as good
2. ive seen other systems fail as well
3. thermal lense, profilers dont have them, and ive fogged them up before.

thats why i still use the same system. had it not been for ramping run away markers, i wouldnt have had the problems with them cracking.

[GT]

it doesn't work in paintball because the players also run the industry who run the tournaments stand to lose financially if there's caps and limitations on the technology.

Nice!

Please, PLEASE, try to get your facts right when talking about safety and standards, or DON'T say anything about them at all.

Manike,
Forgive me as I maynot have this correct, but arnt there provisions in the ASTM standard for paintball guns and their trigger pull weight? The set of standards I read said something like 2-3lbs, can't remeber.

Does ANSI have any standards yet?

[manike]

thats why i still use the same system. had it not been for ramping run away markers, i wouldnt have had the problems with them cracking.

Three shots?

I would have a major concern with any lense that was at risk from 3 shots, and wouldn't have it anywhere near my eyes. I'd take less comfort and protect my vision better. Failure after 3 shots would not pass the ASTM standard.

If you test the profiler antifog V's thermal lenses I'd be suprised if you found the thermals to fog less.

[manike]

but arnt there provisions in the ASTM standard for paintball guns and their trigger pull weight? The set of standards I read said something like 2-3lbs, can't remeber.

Not sure what you read but it's not the ASTM standards.

There is no ASTM standard on trigger pull to activate the gun.

THERE IS a standard on minimum force to overcome the safety on the gun (mechanical trigger lock outs).

[JRingold]

Ban electros! Best thing that can be done for the game.

But then you would have to ban the response style triggers and valves too, because you can cheat using those on a mech as well.

The solution that I see as the most likely is that Legislation will make it illegal to use any paintball marker outside of a designated legiimate playing field AND that it will set a limitation on the rate of fire as people whom are not familiar with the sport will assume that anything over a very low number (like three) balls per second is fully automatic. Tell me, how many legislators do you know that play paintball? I don't know of any...

Here's another solution... Let's all go back to pumps and stock class!!! Woo Hoo!!!

[CaliMagFan]

I'm seeing, and kinda taking part in some Tyger lashing, but let's work on this point that he is championing. Let's take another sport that relies completely on the use of an "advanced" piece of technology (moreso than running shoes or a ball) for its well being. A great example is motorcycle racing. Tyger makes an excellent point that 250cc 4 strokes dont race against 500 2 strokes, and there is a reason for that. The field starts as LEVEL and the skill and many times luck of a rider divides them from the rest of the pack.

It's hard, if not impractical to limit the specs that industry people set on their markers and so forth, but it is easy to enforce what is allowed in a tourney to some extent. So now we have an omni-leveling force of every marker just getting faster, and that speed levels the playing field for the most part... But what Tyger and some others are saying is that the speed brings up safety issues that are not yet addressed... We are, as much as you dont wanna hear it, wearing the same masks and shirts and pants that we were in 1996 when markers weren't really even near the 10bps mark, and tournament PB was still somewhat in the woods.

So it's not just an issue of safety, cause you cant control the speed or the "legality" of the speed of one's marker in this age of cheater boards and people like hitech that brag about being able to cheat; to say it bluntly. It's more an issue of a leveling of the field... so we at least know:
1) to what extent we need to make ourselves safe
2) when we compete, what we're competing against
3) and in the same vein as 2, when we compete what we can use to compete.

So, as I said before, cheaters boards are going to happen, so might I now make a suggestion that draws on the gallery for its sum of ideas.

-- Don't put a Number of balls limit on tournaments, cause people will shoot just as fast, they'll just play more wrecklessly.
--Single finger trigger.
-- full auto, 15bps
--the trigger must be at least 1lb. 2 is better, but with just 1 finger, it's still weighty by todays standards..
--Also, people have mentioned classes... we have stock and pump classes... why not >10bps class, and >18bps class....
-- ALL electro classes would of course be full auto so that you wouldnt have to rely on judges discorvering the right bps rates to trigger players' ramping ships and such...and people couldnt use debounce and rebound or ramping boards caus they are driven by semi-auto switvh imputs and a 1 to 2 lb trigger isnt gunna move fast enough with 1 finger.

also, if judges are reffing at a 15bps tourney, they're gunna know what that sounds like... so if some1 sounds like they're shooting a little too fast (some kinda turbo boards or something).. pull them and test it... and all the ref has to do it pull the trigger for 2 or 3 seconds..

thats my imput here for teh day....

-kyro