Decrease ROF...WHY not DECREASE VELOCITY - Serious discussion

[manike]

We are, as much as you dont wanna hear it, wearing the same masks and shirts and pants that we were in 1996

No we aren't. Unless we are choosing too.

Masks, lenses, pants, and jerseys have all moved forwards, some more than others. And other protective gear has become available.

[xXHavokXx]

Ok to continue the motorccle analogy the 500cc dont race the 250ccs. So do they tell the 500cc bikers they cant use their 500cc bikes and take away 250cc of their engines to make it fair for people who want there to be 250cc races and dont want to bump up?

[Jeffy-CanCon]

yes i do still use the same system.

1. comfort, havent found another mask that fits me as good
2. ive seen other systems fail as well
3. thermal lense, profilers dont have them, and ive fogged them up before.

thats why i still use the same system. had it not been for ramping run away markers, i wouldnt have had the problems with them cracking.

White_Noise, what mask system are you using?

[SlartyBartFast]

Why was the other thread opened by manike deleted?

Manike? Was it you or the Mods?

[nerobro]

Ok to continue the motorccle analogy the 500cc dont race the 250ccs. So do they tell the 500cc bikers they cant use their 500cc bikes and take away 250cc of their engines to make it fair for people who want there to be 250cc races and dont want to bump up?

No, but to make the arguemnt work properly. You can't run 1300cc engines in motogp. But you can run a 500cc 2 stroke or a 1000cc 4 stroke. They don't take 300cc's from you. You just aren't allowed to play.

If you choose to play, you need to play by the rules. You wanna race? you race by our rules. If you have some bike(gun) that doesn't fit in our rules, you leave.

The NPPL used to do that. While the rest of the world had CA tanks, you had to run 12gm's. Same for pump versus semi.

Anywhere bur paintball, it's a fact of life. Play by our rules, or don't play.

In fact, That's one of the problems with paintball. Players are defining the rules. Not a governing body. While unpopular, top fuel is now running 90% nitromethane. Instead of the 100% they used to run. Or, we could talk F1, where they used to be electronic wonders (think full auto with target acquisition), but have now given up on that and are back to bascily unaided drivers (think mechanical guns, or first generation angels)

[CaliMagFan]

Manike: Let's just do a little digging to see what gear was being used circa 1996... fair enough??

http://www.paintmagazine.com/wpaint4/masters.shtml

-That page is one of a couple dozen of sub articles from PB events around the globe. Now, if you please, you can go to the linking page and view the various other pages like the one aforelinked. To make that easier, here is the URL:

http://www.paintmagazine.com/articles/Paintball_Tournaments/

Ok, so that is an indicator, at least to me, what equipment has been used since 1996 (so far as masks and "clothing" goes). Now, granted they're not wearing Dye C5 gear, or JT 04 Tourney pants, but I hope that you can agree that the level of protection given in what they wear is comparable to what we use today. The main thing I notice is that most of the players are geared in JT spectra masks, and a few do have the "cut versions" of the spectra that did not have the ear pieces or the full chin guard. From JT spectra (which along with the flex-7 are still very widely used) to a mask like the Profiler- which might be the most "armored" of the modern masks, I see about a 30%, at most, increase in face/neck coverage. Now take that 30% and stack it against the max bps then and now... For the sake of argument, I'm going to say that the max bps then was 10. Now, I think thats a bit high, cause that is hard to sustain when on a mech anything, but given the existence of early electros, I'll give you 10bps. Bring that in the light of the ~20 bps of todays markers, and you have a rough 100% increase in "firepower", but: A) no change in mask mandate since the lower half being made a rule circa 1996. And B) the coverage increase in the "cutting edge" mask increase of only 30%.

And if you would, please notice that most of the players (only excluding a few in the later dated pages ~1998+) are using mechanical only markers. You see many Mags and many cockers. I did see a shoebox shocker with PF and what I think was an early angel.

Ok, so now let's just back 2 more years from '96 and look at a page from 1994.

http://www.mnpig.com/minnesota/paintball/museum/1994_1.htm

What we see here is a group guys wearing what looks to be early forms of the JT spectra and Xfire or something of an approximate protection area. And what markers were they using? PGPs ?? Pray hard and sling about 5bps from those for a grand total of 11 balls!! I think you can see where this is going.

You strike as someone that knows the ins of their part of the industry. And yes, I'm sure that you take my best interests at heart when you mill the sharp edges off my 25+bps marker. I'm actually more worried about being shot with 5 balls in the side of the mask and having it dislodged from my head.

Very right about what you said here "...And other protective gear has become available."
That is very true. I'm looking into a set of elbow/forearm guards right now. Those items do nothing for the "important" part of the body, the face. I'm not trying to kid about that either... Which would you rather, 30 balls to the arm/chest, or 1 to the eye. I'll take the body any day... I only have two eyes, and bruises heal faster than obliterated eyeballs.

I can show you many markers that are "100% better" (that's a big quote-mark on that one too... but i think that you get what I'm saying. Let's hope that you have pushed your industry too 100% more in the last 9 years) than those used in 1996. I challenge you to show me a mask that is "100% better" than those of 1996 (and prove it to some extent, please.)
I'm gunna go for the old legal "Red Herring" on you too by saying that the JT mask with the full face and head guard is an example of the right step ahead, but doesn't count here, as it's not mandated to be used at fields that allow the use of the 100% better guns.
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xXHavokXx:

I'm kinda confused about what you just said. I was discussing the need for "classes" of tournament as well as rec-field paintball play. I said nothing about taking away "500cc bikes" so that the "250 guys" can have everyone play at their level... I was speaking with respect to the fact that if I'm on the start line with a 250cc bike under me, I want to know that there are no riders that are on 500cc bikes.

So, that's my response to what I gather you are saying with this:
"Ok to continue the motorccle analogy the 500cc dont race the 250ccs. So do they tell the 500cc bikers they cant use their 500cc bikes and take away 250cc of their engines to make it fair for people who want there to be 250cc races and dont want to bump up?"

Now, if I interpreted that wrong, do let me know. But I think that you just missed the point, and might not know about the overall system of "clases" in some sports is all about.

[manike]

Manike: Let's just do a little digging to see what gear was being used circa 1996... fair enough??

You are correct in that the equipment looks similar, and is similar to what is available today.

Since then JT have changed how they make their lenses. They used to be cut from a piece of curved material which was shaped by heat, now they are injected. This makes a difference in strenght and weak spots. But visualy they are very similar.

Many new goggles come with chin straps.

Other companies lenses which were not available then, are now, and are, in my opinion, superior. Vforces lenses are in some cases nearly 4mm thick! (compared to 2mm from some of the old JT ones).

There is protective gear now available, that wasn't then. You can use it. You don't have to use the old safety gear from 1996. It's hard to see what the tournament players are wearing under the similar jerseys and pants, but most are wearing slider shorts and pads that were not available back then, or are significantly better now.

Back then we allowed less face protection. Now we do not and we enforce it rigourously at the top end. It could be said that Bob Long lost the World Cup because he wore a modified mask and got a 5 minute major penalty. In 1996, you were only required to wear goggles. People played without anything protecting their ears and mouths. Now that isn't allowed.

Jerseys can now come with padding in them to protect your elbows.

Pants now come with padding in the knee and groin areas.

A lot of the stuff looks very similar but it has been improved subtly. In my opinion it IS better.

Again, as we have discussed and I don't want to get into it here, it's up the players if they choose to buy new gear that is more protective or play the old way. As long as they are protecting their eyes and ears with regulation goggles. I don't think it matters what shirt or pants they choose to play in.

[RAM3139]

In my opinion, before anything else, there needs to be an agency/organization as seperate from the profit making side of the industry as possible. They need to research and update all the information on what are the legitimate safety concerns of the sport today. For example, exactly when a mask lense needs to be replaced (adter 1 close shot, after 1 year, after visible signs of wear etc..), or whether repeated (15+ bps) impacts from a paintball can cause damage, and if not, is there a limit where it can. While the individual efforts of companies to improve safety eqiupment is commendable and very important (thanks Manike), there needs to be an outside body setting intelligent, uniform guidlines as a whole.
Second, the thought of reducing velocity, and as a result, limiting the game, seems a little absurd to me. Why would you when there are so many easy ways to increase the safetly equipment without changing how the game is played. Whoever mentioned treating lenses like HPA systems (expiration dates and visual inspections EVERY time you play) was right on. Also perhaps setting a minimum thickness for the lense, or a chinstrap to make sure they stay on. These are all simple things that wouldnt be too hard to impliment and would go miles towards making paintball even safer. Just my 2 cents,

[REDRT]

Why decrease either? As the industry grows and everything, but mags get faster as of late. The max of 300fps outdoor 250/280fps indoor seems to work. Remember, the protective gear gets better too. It is us the players are demanding the equipment not the industry. I really don't see an issue other than lack of funds to support the high end stuff(I'm broke). It comes right down to,"if you can't hang with the big dogs, stay out of the yard". Maybe they should class the marker along with skill levels. Maybe then it would level the playing field and keep everyone happy. Just think you could have unlimited, electro, rt, classic semi-auto, and pump along with pro, amateur, novice, rookie, newbie...Like unlimited-pro, RT/rookie or mecanical semi-auto/newbie. You could take the marker up a level as you progressed in skill, but it wouldn't be aloud in lower levels like unlimited marker to classic semi-auto event. I think that would be more of the answer than limiting all to 1 max rof or even lower fps. See what you guys think about that idea.

[PBX Ronin 23]

The mojority of the injuries that occur in paintball occur outside the realm of the supervised environment that exist in organized fields. I don't think that anybody will argue with this point.

Such being the case, paintball insurance won't be affected by these incidents. Usually, home owner's insurance will take the hit. Although there are no statistical information that I can provide, but you can certainly make a reasonable conclusion that if the home owners sector of the insurance industry carries the economic burden, they will act upon decreasing their liability.

That, in a way, is a form of outside intervention that will adversely affect the industry. If they exert enough pressure, you can bet that there will be enough legislative pressure to endanger the industry as a whole.

[PBX Ronin 23]

"if you can't hang with the big dogs, stay out of the yard".

It's not the loss of the dogs that should be a collective concern for us........IT'S THE LOST OF THE YARD. Such shortsightedness from the players is part of the core of the problem that needs to be discussed along with the others that I enumerated on the original post.

[hitech]

The majority of the injuries that occur in paintball occur outside the realm of the supervised environment that exists in organized fields. I don't think that anybody will argue with this point...Usually, home owner's insurance will take the hit.

I do question that. I'm not trying to say you are wrong, but this is the first time I have heard anyone claim that paintball related injury claims against home owners insurance policies are increasing. OR, are you saying that non-field paintball injuries are definitely increasing and they MAY increase claims against homeowner's insurance policies?

[PBX Ronin 23]

The LATTER. No statiscal info to provide for this but it definitely was a main thrust of my conversation with that gentleman I referred to.

[REDRT]

It's not the loss of the dogs that should be a collective concern for us........IT'S THE LOST OF THE YARD. Such shortsightedness from the players is part of the core of the problem that needs to be discussed along with the others that I enumerated on the original post.

Well, I didn't really feel I was shortsighted. But if you want to talk about safety outside the local fields, I'll give you another opinion. It sucks! I do not feel kids should run around playing in the backyard. Things could happen. Most of the time they are unsupervised and even if they were most parents are not qualifield as a first responder to an accident or a serious injury. And then lets on mention the public getting hit with a stray paintball. If I was to get hit by your kids pantball in my eye as I was walking down the sidewalk, I would sue the crap out of you and win. There is a time and place for everything. Paintball is on a field. My earlier suggestion was to try and come up with ways to help make field play more even and fair with out stepping on everybodys toes with this is what it should be, final answer.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Well, I didn't really feel I was shortsighted. But if you want to talk about safety outside the local fields, I'll give you another opinion. It sucks! I do not feel kids should run around playing in the backyard. Things could happen. Most of the time they are unsupervised and even if they were most parents are not qualifield as a first responder to an accident or a serious injury. And then lets on mention the public getting hit with a stray paintball. If I was to get hit by your kids pantball in my eye as I was walking down the sidewalk, I would sue the crap out of you and win. There is a time and place for everything. Paintball is on a field. My earlier suggestion was to try and come up with ways to help make field play more even and fair with out stepping on everybodys toes with this is what it should be, final answer.

But the problem we're trying to address encompases within and without the realm of the regulated field. As the sport grows, we will see more and more of the situation that you've mentioned outside of the field environment.

There is no available means to control a lot of the things that can go wrong in the sport.....and that, in and of itself, is the problem.