Decrease ROF...WHY not DECREASE VELOCITY - Serious discussion

[Lohman446]

Well, I didn't really feel I was shortsighted. But if you want to talk about safety outside the local fields, I'll give you another opinion. It sucks! I do not feel kids should run around playing in the backyard. Things could happen. Most of the time they are unsupervised and even if they were most parents are not qualifield as a first responder to an accident or a serious injury. And then lets on mention the public getting hit with a stray paintball. If I was to get hit by your kids pantball in my eye as I was walking down the sidewalk, I would sue the crap out of you and win. There is a time and place for everything. Paintball is on a field. My earlier suggestion was to try and come up with ways to help make field play more even and fair with out stepping on everybodys toes with this is what it should be, final answer.

So basically if they don't play where you think they should play they shouldn't play?

Does this go further, that each field should be required to follow certain rules - have liscensed firts responders, perhaps and ambulance on stand-by (there was one for part of the last tournament I was actuallY), and do things only in a wa you approve of? Perhaps a government body to oversee all of this?

Kinda of a scary slope you start down there.

[TheDuelist]

Another aspect of the insurance argument may be that it could be the one thing that forces the industry to come together to defend the way they make their living. Just like we have a gun lobby here, we could see that extended to paintball which then forces regulations on the industry to somehow oversee the problems affecting the sport in the biggest ways.

Personally I don't forsee the insurance gambit being the biggest player but with the size of the industry and the constant growth in sales I don't think the companies would just roll over and accept legislation that would put them out of business. I think you are not giving the profit hording capitalists enough credit to avert their demise.

[REDRT]

I just had a very long conversation with a prominent, long standing and respected member of the Paintball Industry about the potential ramifications of the sports current state of affairs as it relates to the ROF issue and cheater modes on electronic boards.

This may very well be what killed the goose that laid the golden egg for people involved in the business of paintball. With the potential intervention of regulatory bodies that deal with consumer product safety issues, the potential increase in eye injuries that may be occurring with the rapidly increasing rates of fire and the velocity ramping modes that not only the custom board guys make but also the stock boards that some manufacturers install into their guns, it behooves the industry as a whole to start reconsidering the VERY REAL ramifications of this dilemma.

Although injuries that occur at the fields have stayed relatively stable, it is the injuries that occur outside that environment that is worrisome. Such injuries and accident are covered by home insurance carriers. The rate of paintball related injuries outside of the regulated field environment has seen a steady increase. At some point in time, these increases will lead to the insurance companies lobbying not just for restrictive legislation but rather prohibitive ones. These insurance companies have the ability to shut down paintball as a sport and as an industry.

So what now? In a comment I made earlier in connection with a rant on ROF, I specifically laid out that the industry and the sport have too many divergent interests and no universally accepted governing body to mandate the necessary corrective measures. As an example of this, take a look at the NPPL and who sits on the Rules Committee. I believe Mr. Ged Green, owner of WDP, is a member of that committee. If the NPPL is to be looked upon by us as one of the guiding forces in the industry when it comes to generally accepted rules, can they under the leadership of Chuck Hendsch enact rules that may be perceived as contrary to WDP's best interest? Can these two gentlemen separate the political issues that govern their participation in the sport and just focus in on doing what's in the best interest of all?

Can the ASTM Sub-committee for paintball, play a role in safeguarding the future of the sport? They know what needs to get done. The problem that exists is that they have neither the muscle nor the political consensus to enact the corrective measure that they know they need to enact.

Will the manufacturers see that it is in their own long-term best interest to act collectively in conjunction with the ASTM sub-committee and find a solution? Can they subvert their egos and prevent a potential catastrophe from happening? My guess, probably not. Their drive to compete in a market place predicated on a self-perpetuating arms race won't allow them to.

Can the Players see that if they feed the supply with their demand for faster shooting guns and cheater boards, that they themselves are driving their own demise?

I believe that there are just too many divergent interests and not enough common ground to facilitate a solution to this problem. Perhaps the solution isn't "how to decrease the amount of paint being shot" but rather to decrease the energy with which the paint impacts a target. What very few people know and what no one really cares to trumpet in public is that lenses in today's goggle systems can only take so many direct impacts before it fails. Check the warning labels and you'll know exactly what I mean.

I hope that this post can ignite a worthy discussion and garner some thoughtful responses. It behooves the members of the paintball inteligensia who frequent this board to sound off their thoughts on this subject and the potential solution that I am espousing.

Here is the very first post. Where are you going with this? It started on the field and now it is at home. To regulate paintball at home is absurd. Who is going to enforce it? There is talk to outlaw it's play to only certified fields here in Wisconsin, so I've heard. I personaly think it should be played at the field. As it now there is no regs reguarding the play outside a paintball field. As with playing other games like football, basketball and so forth. But The land owner is liable for a certain amount of things, thus lawsuits everyday. I think that if laws were passed like no paintball outside a certified field it would protect the landowner, the general public and the sport. Further more I think new fields would crop up in the areas that are lacking creating jobs and growth to the sport. But is there even a problem to begin with? Curious to know the accident ratio to paintball related on and off the field.

[hitech]

Paintball played on property with only a homeowners insurance policy is definitely a problem. However, I'm sure that homeowners insurance has covered claims where sporting equipment was improperly used and resulted in injury. I wonder how often that happens? I wonder what "they" did?

However, if the companies that underwrite these polices think the claims are becoming excessive we can be assured they will take action to protect themselves. And they won't care that it is to our detriment.

I think that the existing ASTM standard for markers needs to be followed. I'm all for making it the law. I also think it should be a requirement that the marker should not be able to be easily user adjustable such as to make them non-compliant.

[REDRT]

So basically if they don't play where you think they should play they shouldn't play?

Does this go further, that each field should be required to follow certain rules - have liscensed firts responders, perhaps and ambulance on stand-by (there was one for part of the last tournament I was actuallY), and do things only in a wa you approve of? Perhaps a government body to oversee all of this?

Kinda of a scary slope you start down there.

NO, there is or should be at every certified field someone that has some form of firstaid training and has paintball safety training. The field is insured and set up for that use. The waiver is for the protecting of the field owner. There is alot of things that can go wrong, as with anything. The homeowner isn't going to have this.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Here is the very first post. Where are you going with this? It started on the field and now it is at home. To regulate paintball at home is absurd. Who is going to enforce it?

That's the one of the core of the problem.....you can't legislate common sense. But as a community that encompasses the players, the manufacturers, the ASTM Sub-Committee, field operators and the major leagues, it behooves us to respond and if need be take pre-emptive measure to protect ourselves from undue and prhibitive legislation.

That's where I'm going with this and it seems like your sate is beginning to do just what I postulated outsiders will do to us is we do not take the necessary measure.

There is talk to outlaw it's play to only certified fields here in Wisconsin, so I've heard. I personaly think it should be played at the field. As it now there is no regs reguarding the play outside a paintball field. As with playing other games like football, basketball and so forth. But The land owner is liable for a certain amount of things, thus lawsuits everyday.

So you're further supporting what I have postulated by saying that non-paintball insurance people will be affected by these incidents outside of the field. Hence the probable, if not certain, increase in home owners insurance claims surrounding paintball related injuries.

[REDRT]

Look at 9-11 and what it did to the nation regarding insurance costs.

[REDRT]

I still am unsure of the point, "Because of high rates of fire safety outside the field is down and insurance is going to go up"? Insurance is going to go up regardless of paintball, ask any doctor about insurance costs. I think regulations on the field have to be consistant before you can address them off the field.

[PBX Ronin 23]

I still am unsure of the point, "Because of high rates of fire safety outside the field is down and insurance is going to go up"? Insurance is going to go up regardless of paintball, ask any doctor about insurance costs. I think regulations on the field have to be consistant before you can address them off the field.

What is implied is that with the cheater boards proliferating out there, the higher ROF achieved is the next safety issue that will potentially impact the industry in a negative way.

When accidents relating to paintball occur, it doesn't matter what it is, it will invariably result to negative publicity for the sport. If the economic burden to a certain sector in the insurance industry gets impacted enough, they will mobilize and lobby for new laws to help them with their burden.

Referencing an earlier post concerning older or 'compromised' lenses being hit with high ROF strings that these boards can produce, it will at some point cause problems both within an organized environment (field) and outside (renegade).

High ROF from cheater boards, tanks designed with no additional safeties, unsupervised play, etc. these are but some of the issues that can drive this industry down the toilet.

What I'm also implying with my original post is that with all the divergent interests in paintball, can we all work together to do the right thing for everyone.....

[RRfireblade]

What is implied is that with the cheater boards proliferating out there, the higher ROF achieved is the next safety issue that will potentially impact the industry in a negative way.

When accidents relating to paintball occur, it doesn't matter what it is, it will invariably result to negative publicity for the sport. If the economic burden to a certain sector in the insurance industry gets impacted enough, they will mobilize and lobby for new laws to help them with their burden.

Most of those instances have nothing to do with ROF though.

Referencing an earlier post concerning older or 'compromised' lenses being hit with high ROF strings that these boards can produce, it will at some point cause problems both within an organized environment (field) and outside (renegade).

High ROF from cheater boards, tanks designed with no additional safeties, unsupervised play, etc. these are but some of the issues that can drive this industry down the toilet.

I think your focus is misplaced. The 'average' woodsballer is not using $1000 guns w/ cheater boards. They are using RT Tippys and E-Spyders set on full auto, in many cases, and have been doing so for quite some time.That has not and currently is not where the 'saftey' problems lie. The cheater board/chip craze,IMO, has had zero impact on this issue.

What I'm also implying with my original post is that with all the divergent interests in paintball, can we all work together to do the right thing for everyone.....

As I see it.

[felony]

Problem Solved!

yeah

xball would be pimptastic

[PBX Ronin 23]

As I see it.

What if the industry adopted a standard for CO2 valves that provides for a safety vent in the event that it accidentally gets unscrewed. What if they did this in 2003. Do you thing that the accidental paintball related deaths in 2004 would have been prevented?

Also, who would have thought five years ago that the mass retailers like WalMart will be carrying electros for under $300. Would it be an unreasonable assumption that what is cutting edge today that's sold at a premium be available to the lower segment of the market in several years? I know as a manufacturer that eventually I would like my products to sell to that segment of the market because it is the most lucrative one. Not the high-end segment that most people think.

In as much as there is no directed correlation between higher ROF resulting from cheater boards to some of TODAY's incidents, should we as an industry take a lackadaisical attitude and wait for things to happen before we go ahead and correct problem?

Or should we have some foresight and act proactively in taking pre-emptive measures to prevent something that can easily be prevented. Understand one thing, I am not offering a panacea. What I want to achieve is a thoughtful discourse on the subject on hand.

[RRfireblade]

I understand your feeling as well as your intent. It's simply my opinion that ROF has not been,is not currently and I don't expect it to be the primary cause for injury in the near future.We have already reached what is likely the practical limites of ROF. Even the most advanced markers and loaders will not reliably feed and fire much past the mid 20's.I don't see it where a few more BPS at those R'sOF is going to have a drastic impact.

The most common injuries since the beggining of the sport have really not changed.They are and have always been basic issues with the proper use of protective gear and the intended use of the other products involved.Doesn't matter whether the ROF at the time is 5bps or 25. That issue has not and likey will not change with the 'typical' unsupervised,un-organized,non-commercial field player.These are the kids riding bikes without helmets(law have not changed that) skateboarding in un-approved areas (law have not changed that)swimming,playing,hanging,partying....in unsafe and unsupervised and unprotected areas. And guess what, laws have not changed that in the 20-30 years since I was a 'kid'.

Know what has changed? Parental guidance,parental responsibilty,parental control of THIER own children.Everyone else is always to blame for little 'johnny' who had some tragic accident while Mommy and Daddy were both at work, or watching the 'game' or what ever they felt was more important than the safety of thier own children.You want to have an impact on the sport?Our sport? Any sport...any activity...any other recreation? You have to start at home with the only people who can REALLY make a difference.

Oh...and it aint gonna be easy because it's never going to be thier fault...especially with the yellow pages flooded with Lawyers who will work on contingency.

Keep in mind I'm talking about the most common types of safety issues, not the rare isolated cases like the 2 CO2 tragedys from last year.With hundreds of thousands of new people playing every year,a few of those types of cases are regretfully un-aviodable, IMO,whatever you try and do.

[PBX Ronin 23]

Know what has changed? Parental guidance,parental responsibilty,parental control of THIER own children.Everyone else is always to blame for little 'johnny' who had some tragic accident while Mommy and Daddy were both at work, or watching the 'game' or what ever they felt was more important than the safety of thier own children.You want to have an impact on the sport?Our sport? Any sport...any activity...any other recreation? You have to start at home with the only people who can REALLY make a difference.

You sound like the Charles Barkley of paintball. Of course everything starts at home. My six year old can tell you that. But using this as an excuse is just as disengeneous as Barkley in absolving himself of having any influence over the youth of America. Assigning blame to parents rather than seeing what positives he can contribute to the youth of America is too easy a cop-out for someone who has gained so much influence and prestige for being so out-spoken.

Do you really think that the paintball industry taken as a whole (manufacturers, players, field operators, ASTM committee and major league promoters), should seek absolution from their obligation in ensuring the future of the sport by finding a convenient place to assign blame? Or should we all find some tangible means to work collectively in ensuring that same future?

In the final analysis, the choice has always been ours to make. The problem is creating the mechanism to effect the policies the we must all collectively make.

[manike]

you can't legislate common sense.

If only!! I wish we could...